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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Promotional BS, if you will. Of course, every promoter may award a championship to the winner of his event, but this being an IMCA event, and with that organisation being VERY liberal with championship titles all the time, I wouldn't put too much stock in the caption. On the other hand, the MN State Fair was one of the biggest events in the country, attendance-wise, so it WAS certainly a prestigious race to win for any independent racer of that area.

    That's Gus Schrader in his new Schrader/Miller at the far right, btw, and the car in the middle appears to be the Bagley/Cragar, presumably with Sam Hoffman at the wheel. Far left could be Carl Marchese's old Miller '122', but I don't know who drove it that day. Schrader won two events that year, Sep 7 and 10, with Hoffman second on the 7th and third on the 10th. There may have been additional events.
     
  2. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I have Waterman driving a Buick in 1913, an Overland in 1915 and a "Gandy Special" in 1916. I have seen the latter described as a Stutz chassis with a Duesenberg engine, but there were at least two Gandy Specials competing, and that may apply to only one of them. The car in the pic is certainly not a Duesey, so perhaps the Overland?
     
  3. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I would hazard a guess that this picture is more likely from 1925 than '35 - that looks suspiciously like the Haugdahl/Horey Miller at the front, a car that looked considerably different five years later and may have been out of service by '35.
     
  4. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    2nd October 1915 - California Raisin Classic 150 mile Auto Race
    Fresno Fairgrounds, CA.

    1st - James Parsons - Stutz - 2:31:04
    2nd - Eddie S. Waterman - Overland Special - 2:34:17
    3rd - Frank Good - Stutz - 2:40:37
    4th - W.A.Boldon - Gandy Special - 2:47:30
    R - Dave Lewis - Mercer - 143 laps/burnt bearing
    R - George Hill - Mercer - ??
    R - Roy Francis - Stevens-Duryea - 63 laps/radiator
    R - Clyde Rhodes - Studebaker - 58 laps/Accident/steering knuckle
    R - Frank Elliot - Gordon Special - 58 laps/steering knuckle
    R - Dan E.Francis - Stevens-Duryea - 18 laps/Accident/fatal​

    ** Dan E.Francis and ride along mechanic, Frank Tuttle killed. Francis passed away 2 hours later in hospital**​
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  5. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

  6. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    ...
     

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  7. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

  8. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Great photo, I don't think I have ever seen it. Thanks T-H
     
  9. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Yes it is.

    Here's a couple of small color photos of the l4. An engine i prefer over the V8. www.sunbeam.org.uk/NZ%20page.htm

    BTW, is it Victor Demogeot or Demongeot? I have seen it spelt both ways.
     
  10. Howard Kroplick
    Joined: Feb 26, 2008
    Posts: 14

    Howard Kroplick
    Member

  11. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,786

    The37Kid
    Member

    Michael, Do you think this is the exHaugdahl/Horey car?I have a photo of it in a Langhorne program when Ira Vail owned it. Vail sold it to the local Dodge Brothers dealer George Taytor. Photo is in front of the dealership and the building looks the same today. I've always wanted to know the history of the car. I've asked but no one knows were it went. Bob
     

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  12. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Different car, Bob. The Haugdahl/Horey car was a true single-seater, the Vail car offset to the left. Also, the former car didn't have a tail section, it stopped abruptly with the seat. Here's a picture that shows it more clearly:

    [​IMG]

    I still struggle a bit with the Vail car, I cannot really place it. The frame and engine look pure Miller, but most everything else looks homemade. Do you know when Vail owned this car, and when he sold it? What was the date of that Langhorne event you were talking about? I haven't come across the name Taytor, either. :(
     

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  13. fur biscuit
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 7,831

    fur biscuit
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Been mulling this over...the technicals are there, but dont take it all for wrote. Dimensionally the Stutz is with in 1-2" of the 3 litre Bentley. Except the frame, cause, well...Stutz's don't break frames.

    What is sitting down stairs (images courtesy of ~E~).

    [​IMG]

    in grey:

    [​IMG]

    in blue:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. twin6
    Joined: Feb 12, 2010
    Posts: 2,237

    twin6
    Member
    from Vermont

    Clearly not safety officials; maybe they were only interested in color.
     

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  15. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    I'd like to see a close up of the crowd.
     
  16. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    [​IMG]

    Found this picture in several late 1924 newspapers, and even if it is very poor I'm pretty sure it shows the Vail/Miller in an early outing. I have no specific info about the race mentioned in the caption, but the Mineola Fair races were usually in September, which ties in perfectly with what I have about that particular car.

    After the return of his board track nausea, Vail appears to have arranged for the sale of his Miller '122' and built this car instead. It probably first appeared at Middletown (NY) on August 16, 1924, when it was described as Ira Vail's "new straight 8 Miller, built especially for him in Los Angeles at a cost of $18,000" - these statements aren't necessarily to be taken literally, though.

    Vail seems to have driven this car with great success until the summer of 1926, when he apparently bought the Frank Lockhart '122/183' Miller hybrid. Charlie Ganung (or: Genung), who already had a history of racing Vail hand-me-downs, took over the Vail/Miller and appears to have raced it until 1929 minimum, perhaps even 1932. In that year, Frank Farmer reportedly drove a "Ganing Special" at Syracuse, likely the Vail/Miller again. After that and a couple more entries for Ganung, the trail fades.
     

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  17. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Found info about the Mineola race, it was actually on October 4: Vail won the 10-mile main event from Norm Batten (Duesenberg), who took fast time (31.0") from Vail (31.4"). Other prominent entries were Jack Foley, Henry Turgeon and Bill Albertson.
     
  18. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,786

    The37Kid
    Member

    Michael, I have all the paperwork on the Vail 122 MILLER that he sold to H.D.Carpenter December 27, 1924, he had raced it at INDY finishing 8th, the following year he drove for Carpenter in the same car finishing 20th. R.J. Johnson managed the car and drove it as well but a crash at Charlotte caused him to miss INDY. The car was later sold to M. A. Yagle. Philadelphia must have been filled with MILLER race cars in the late 1920's. I've wondered if this car was the car Bill Albertson was killed in, and later restored by Ed Roy. Now rerestored that car carries the JR.8 paintwork and is said to be the Earl Cooper car.
     
  19. From the online Spokane Daily Chronicle "microfilm". Supposedly the Gil Anderson Stutz being raced in 1923 by Tip Bloom (Blume?). Tip won the July 4th, 1923 race. Also won a later race at Vancouver, BC, Canada's Hastings Park. Some good photos of the car and the race in the City of Vancouver Archives.
     

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  20. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Howard..... I noticed you post on your site about the Vanderbilt Cup Renaults.

    I just bought these photos of what I believe to be one of them that was converted into a road car. The seat could have possibly have been changed but if you compare all of the rest of the features they match. The only clue I have with them is the name Croxton on the back of the photo. Contact me if you would like me to send you good sized copies for your site.
     

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  21. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    If I am remembering correctly that car went thru Earl Coopers hands and he put the DOHC Wisconsin in it along with the cutouts for it to clear the hood. It did end up in the North West and had some success there.
     
  22. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,315

    ehdubya
    Member

    Could be a color consultant or aerodynamicist

    [​IMG]
     

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  23. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    At present, I believe the Vail/Carpenter/Yagle Miller to have gone to Larry Beals in 1929/30, then to Louis Katz in '31, and possibly George Wingerter in '34 - by this time, it had a Model A Duesey engine. The Albertson car was indeed the Earl Cooper car in 1925 (80 % sure on this), but the earlier history is a bit unclear still. Could have been a new car in '25, or the car Eddie Hearne debuted in early '24, and subsequently driven by Harlan Fengler and Stu Wilkinson. It seems to be the most original rear-drive Miller still in existence.

    And yes, there were quite a few Millers in the City of Brotherly Love - Ed Yagle alone had up to three!
     
  24. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Great stuff, thanks Brian! Yes, I believe "Tip Bloom" is actually Walter "Tip" Blume. Those Stutz racing cars in the Northwest are still a bit of a headache for me. I have Blume racing an "ex-Cooper" Stutz for Jack Ross in November of 1919, but by that time Cooper had his 300 inch racer still, and the ex-Anderson car appears to have been still with Durant. Those pictures now show the DOHC "ears" very well, and that means it must've been the Newman car, last seen in March 1919, which fits perfectly! It seems that at some point, Cooper owned them all. The article also confirms that Gus Duray still had his 450 inch Stutz in 1923! :)
     
  25. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,315

    ehdubya
    Member

    [​IMG]


    War Derby
    16th June 1917 - Chicago Speedway: 250 mile DePalma Packard on pole, Boyer Fronty, Oldfield Sub, Joe Thomas Mercer

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     

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  26. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,786

    The37Kid
    Member

    Michael, Thank you so much for the Vail/Carpenter/Yagle and now Larry Beals MILLER history! I've had the following photos since the 1970's, parts vendor Bob Brown got them from Larry Beals. I parted with the original Helle Nice cloth driving helmet and original photo of her with the MILLER a few years ago to a fellow in England who was reading her biography "Bugatti Queen". I never understood why Larry or his MILLER is not mentioned in the book. The photos were taken at the Woodbridge New Jersey track. Can you put a date on the event? The text on the back reads.........French woman auto racing driver invades American tracks. Pictured here on the left, is Madamoiselle Helle Nice, holder of all European speed records. The attractive blonde is now in this country seeking competition. Pictured on the right is Larry Beals, scion of one of Philadelphia's oldest families who is also quite a race driver. The pair were photographed at the Woodbridge, N. J. Speedway Sunday where Beals finished second in the fifty lap feature race and were the French girl drove ten laps in 4 minutes and 29 seconds, the first time she has ever driven on a half mile board speedway. After she finished she was nearly mobbed by the spectators who clamored for her autograph. this girl is a real driver having a French record, official of 128 miles per hour. The American AAA ruling will not permit her to compete against men so she is seeking a match race with some American women drivers. NOTE: this is not a publicity photom usual press rate Cy La Tour
     

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  27. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    Gotta say it again,t-head you are one lucky son of a gun!

    Have a great Holiday weekend,and thanks for the beautiful pictures.
     
  28. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,786

    The37Kid
    Member

    If I was 8 years old I would pay to protect that picnic basket! Photo taken at the Ridgefield, Ct. meet 1961.
     

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  29. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

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  30. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 818

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    August 10, 1930. :)
     

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