Just as an FYI, I called a place in Vegas and they stock the Centari 99A Acrylic Enamel, reducer, and hardener. HOWEVER... He said that Dupont is planning on doing away with the Centari line of paint. Not sure how much truth there is to this, but I thought I would pass the news along. It came up when I asked about color mixing for the end color I will be using for the sheet metal and frame of the car. Just something to think about and if there's a DuPont rep on here, maybe they can confirm or deny what I was told.
I just had to go through a class along with my painter regarding all of these new regulations. While I am definitely not a DuPont rep., I am a PPG shop, ...and the word coming down the pipeline is that all of the paints that we are speaking of (Concept, Centari, etc.) all have trace amounts of heavy-metals in the pigments of them. Your source is very correct in the phase out because the EPA is now making us carry a MSDS sheet on each type of paint color we use along with the breakdown of each toner. Also, we must keep a log on all booth filter maintenance and be able to show the frequency of service & use. Even after we have used a spray gun washer on our gun and then use a air nozzle to blow-off the solvent as it drips dry is now considered illegal. All atomized solvents whether blowing off a gun, --or spraying a gun into unfiltered air is considered illegal. It must be done in a booth with filtered air. I am not going to debate whether this is foolish regulation however you just need to understand that California is not the only state that is setting strict guidelines. Many of the paints as we know them right now will be obsolete within the next few years. Not to worry though, for each one they delete, there is one to takes its place. Think back of how many different types of paints you have used over your lifetime, ...and how they have changed or become obsolete.
This is a great thread...reading Rex's (Pimpin Paint) posts always are good for a laugh....he has a way with words....
Excellent! Thanks for adding that bit. I agree this isn't the place to argue the laws and regulations, etc.. I, Myself (and I'm sure others as well) do appreciate the info. This thread has come a loooong way! I'm completely overwhelmed by the amount of info here. Currently calling around to see what's available and trying to get my notes together. My biggest concern is picking something that I can't get later and then having a touch-up to make and can't do it without stripping and starting over so everything matches. I think whatever I end up picking I'll get enough to make sure I'm covered in the event I want to change something or need to do repairs to the finish. Wow... head spinning at this poing.
This is most true! Hey Irish, you have your kilt on now? I can ask that cuz my next of kin were all sheep! Scoot, to stop head spinnin', tape your head to the mixing bench 'till it passes! Given the hand we gotta play, here in "The Peoples Republic", I'd suggest ya run with the Centari. It's easy to shoot, well within most budgets, and if ya get shut out, here in SoCal, you can always play your Vegas connect for alittle whyle longer. It's real easy to drop a grand on the paint counter for finish today, and that doesn't cover everything you'll need for the last coat of "shiney". The paint itself will store for a year or two, the additives are what don't sit well, the hardners about six months. If at all possible, insist on ''factory pack" and not bench mixed product. The factory usually holds a tighter line to the true nature of a colour. With a bench mix, you're bettin' the guy behind the counter wasn't sellin shoes last week and burgers the week before, ya feelin lucky, today? My sources for "Traditional Finish Products" are gettin tight with me havin to cut back room deals, and consort with denizens of that hot place............ maybe I should take up golf? " Humpty Dumpty was pushed "
Thanks man! Pretty much the frame of mind I'm in also. Maybe my head isn't spinning as bad as I thought. HA! Some fantastic info here! Golf?? Hmmm... do you think they'll let you on the course in flip flops? You would have to start wearing funny pants too. YIKES!
So based on what I see here, it looks like the acrylic urethanes and acrylic enamels are the two leading choices for gloss black outside of getting lazy and grabbing a can of Krylon or Rustoleum. Seems Acrylic Urethanes will be harder/more durable than the Acrylic Enamels, but the overall finish may be a little more "plastic" looking than an Acrylic Enamel. Based on the prices I'm getting from shops I've called around to, the Acrylic Urethanes seem to be a little higher than the Acrylic Enamels (of similar quality). Sounds like Polyurethane paints fall closer into the catagory of Acrylic Urethanes, but aren't really mentioned here much. I noticed they are used more for industrial or marine applications. Do these products become very durable and offer TOO much shine, not much flexibility, or what's the story? We actually have some gloss black Polyurethane on the shelf here. Had thought about mixing a small sample and shooting a couple pieces of scrap as test coupons. Anymore input on Polyurethane?
Hey Scoot, Funny Pants.................I like funny pants, 'so long as they're in " Cameron Of Erracht " tartan ! Sounds like Polyurethane paints fall closer into the catagory of Acrylic Urethanes, but aren't really mentioned here much. I noticed they are used more for industrial or marine applications. Do these products become very durable and offer TOO much shine, not much flexibility, or what's the story? We actually have some gloss black Polyurethane on the shelf here. Had thought about mixing a small sample and shooting a couple pieces of scrap as test coupons. Anymore input on Polyurethane?[/QUOTE] The Polyurethane finishes today, do tend to run under the Industrial painting lines more than the automotive. The acrylic urethanes are tending to enjoy their day in the sun, so to speak. Polyurethanes do offer great resistance to rock chips and attact from chemicals, as well as UV rays. How a poly will look on the job is largely a funtion of what reducer and catalyst was used and the skill of the painter. Some brands of polyurethane can be intermixed with acrylic urethanes, colours and clears, but it's largely not a great pratice. Keep in mind that product line availability in polyurethane finishes is under attack by the " New Reich " a.k.a. S.C.A.Q.M.D. , just as with other finishes, compliance rules seem to change with the wind. " A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way"
Funny Pants.................I like funny pants, 'so long as they're in " Cameron Of Erracht " tartan ! Rex, Wasn't he a prisoner of ours? Tartan......I didn't take you as a lover of the plaid.......
I painted the T and some cycle stuff in urethane single stage. Durable as hell, a pal ran a floor jack into my body and it didn't leave a mark. Looks a lot like old laquer w/o the crazing and checking. Can be rubbed out. Flowed well for my first foray back into painting after 10-15 years.
Here is the stuff http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27507&highlight=paint And here http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21307&highlight=paint
PPG's modified acrylic enamel is the stuff. It's rock hardness and salt tested, made for machinery doing the grind outside all day. It's about $50 a gallon and mixes at 16:1...dries in a day...Very durable and glossy, you can also spray without the hardener for less shine. ALK200 and ALK201
Thanks Tman! This is the "Techstar" series, right? Is this similar to PPG Shop-Line? https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProdu...?BrandID=fc333455-bac7-410a-a3fd-04b4ea233dc0
Just as an FYI, here's the Imron info: http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/b/imr/home.html I didn't realize it was a Polyurethane Enamel. Heard nothing but great stuff about Imron. Another product that probably can't be had here. However, I'm guessing it's pretty much the same as the Awlgrip and similar products.
Can you apply a polyurethane over an oil based enamel assuming it is sanded and cleaned? Thanks and this has been a great post!
Shopline is a good product for frames and such. I can't get Omni any longer and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Shopline epoxy primers are the old DP formula. Non-sanding for 3 days, good color hold out. Shopline's price-friendly too. DCCs are harder, thicker, really don't require as much mat'l as Shopline might depending on what you're really doing. You did say a frame and I prefer frames simply painted and not buffed unless they're exposed like a Deuce. Looks more 'natural' if you can dig what I mean. That said Shopline's the way to go. But let's look at something here...HOK is not as pricey as any DuPont or PPG premium product. HOK also seems to have a "glow" about it. Really close to the old DAU line with exception to flash time. You can also fortify your last few coats with say 25% clear and get a permanent "wet look" if that's what you want. Need to polish? Give it time and you can read a newspaper in it if you polish that well. I hate DuPont. Some swear by it, I swear at it. Never ever had good luck with it. Any alkyd enamel is going to be very slow dry and will leave overspray on EVERYTHING. it won't just sweep up or wipe off either. It will stick. Alkyds are for tractors. Sure, some will come on after this and brag about their 10yr old alkyd paint job that's still winning 1st place everywhere...bullshit. Stick with a catalyzed product and a good epoxy primer, you win. If all else fails there's always high gloss powdercoating. Sometimes painting a frame make ZERO financial sense. I can get a frame done here for $800, drop it off as-is, pick it up, done. I can't buy the paint and have it blasted for that. Good luck with what you end up with and you're a dickhead if you don't show it off when you're done
If anyone is doing a garage job, no booth ect... remember, Imron, Acrylic enamel, ect...will be all over everything, as was said. A buddy of mine gets me 2k urethane primer from Keystone. It is $60 bucks a gallon with the hardener. Sands great and seems to be fine over anything. I know we are talking single stage deals here but for a garage job, BC/CC is hard to beat for ease of application. I know, I know. Lippy
This has been an interesting thread, to say the least. A pile of great information for nearly every brand and system of paint available. If I were a greenhorn about to try my hand at painting I would be so confused I wouldn't know which way was up. I just went through the entire PPG product line and came up with 18 single stage acrylic urethane offerings! That would be more than doubled by icluding the low VOC lines and more than trippled if adding the polyurethanes and acrylic enamels. JUST FROM PPG! WOW! My .02 for the novice beginning painter.... 1. Find a painter that might give you some pointers (brand, system, directions) 2. Find a supplier that is dependable, helpful, well stocked, knows the product. 3. Choose a product that is legal and will be for some time in the future in your area. 4. Get the technical data sheets for that product and litterally memorize them. Most are available online. 5. Get every thing you need and enough product to paint some smaller parts or the kids toys. 6. Make sure you have enough time in one sitting to complete those items and give 'er hell. You will learn what works and what doesn't. I listed acrylic urethanes because they've been around for years now and are the most user friendly. They cure and look good. Every good name brand makes good ones. It takes time to learn the fine points of each and every one. You don't have to pick an economy one or a premium one. Just pick one that suits your budget and learn to use it. Let her shine! Good luck. Jake
I use this and similar on farm equipment and it's great. Tough as can be, no fade, shiny and weathers well. Idiot proof. Some is $40 a quart.
I'll save you a big headache and would suggest againt omni,if you opt to ever use it other colors buy twice as much as you think you'll need or make sure you get a real close match value shade on your primer.
Scoot, I got that W-71 gun today and it is a 2.0 mm needle set. I've got a line on some Iwata dealers that could order the 1.0 mm set, though.
OK scooter, some of the posts got me paranoid so I went to see my paint jobber yesterday. I have enough experience with the Nason so I had him run me up a price. BLACK, straight black no blues or yellows in the mix. It is a factory pack color I think he called it. My cost was less than $200 out the door for teh components. Asked him about some of the new regs and he confirmed what was stated here and added the new OSHA registration deadline that just passed. No biggie for us but some of the small town shops will prob get shut down. He said there was something like a 25k/day fine for every day after the deadline you let it slide.
imron by dupont industral epoxy paint is the good and it is still sold at dupont stores. not to knock down the nason line but it will chip easy. epoxys or powder coats are the way to go.
The nason I looked at is a single stage urethane. Very tough finish. This car is sprayed with the same product (not by me). Most of what you see there is outta the gun, only a couple spots needed colorsanding. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16916&highlight=phaeton
i wouldn't worry too much about future touch ups with a different paint, because if it's years in the future you can't really predict what is going to be around. just buy extra now and keep it around (shake every once and awhile). the difference between enamel and urethane is that urethane is thicker giving it the "plastic" look. say like the vin is lightly stamped on the frame, the enamel will flow INTO the numbers where as the urethane will flow OVER the numbers mostly covering it. i also agree with the pia of doing a home paint job, but no one will care about your car as you will and on a frame where you need to get every nook and cranny...you have the time were the paint shops don't. also add to the fact of learning something new, a skill you will use over and over (who wants to deal with a paint shop over small pieces). this thread is getting better all the time, i didn't know it was a nationwide thing...i don't feel so cheated .
Ok, I found a 1.0 MM gun at this site: http://tools-rvsupplies.com/W-71-1.0MM-SPRAY-GUN-W-CUP-104.html. The site says that he's out of stock, but the guy let me know he has 10 of them in stock, in case anyone is looking for one of these.
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