241 Dodge hemi Intermediate shaft HELP!

He guys I really need your help I can't get the intermediate shat to align with my oil pump shaft, I have tried for several hours. Its a stock pump, original shaft so I know nothing has changed. I even got the engine running and thats when I noticed that there was no oil pressure. I took the distributor off and the shaft was not aligned with the oil pumps shaft. Any suggestions?

 

If all else fails, can you drop the pan & do it from the bottom. It tends to be a pain, but you should be able to twist it in from the top. Hope you didn't do any damage.

 

You shouldn't need to line the shaft up with the pump...it should drop right in as the cam turns the gear. If it doesn't, especially since you futzed around trying to do it, then either the tang on the pump shaft is too thick or the slot on the intermediate shaft is too narrow...

 

The funny thing is that I had the gear down all the way when I put the motor together I had just put aside the priming for a later day. Now I stuck with this issue. Both of you guys make a good point, I will have to measure the gear on the original camshaft and the re-ground shaft. If all fails then I will drop the pan.

 

It took two of us to line mine up. I visually aligned the tang to the pump and had my friend turn the crank back and forth till it just dropped in..
I don't understand how you got your engine to run and the shaft not in right, that would push the distributor up tang height or the tang is broken off..The gear on the shaft is fitted to the cam gear????????
Duane..

 

He Duane I have been waiting for your response since you have had issues with your engine. The funny thing is that it ran and the distributor sat flush on the block. I took the dissy out and used my prime rod and aligned the tang so I now the tang is not broken. I even re-primed the engine to lubricate and re-check the pressure.

 

Well, I would check to see if the oil galley coming out of the oil pump in plugged or your pump is out to lunch. When you used your primer rod did you get oil pressure????
Duane..

 

There is simply no way for the dist to be in place without the int shaft being in place, and if the int shaft is in place then it has to be engaged with the pump, UNLESS the pump is hanging down ¼"...you did tighten the bolts ?????

Did you remove the internal galley plug when you cleaned the block?? Did you put it back in??


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These are all good questions, the oil galley plug I'm going to check on that, when I primmed the engine I did get oil pressure the guage read over 80 psi. with the drill I was using. I dont know if it was that high because I was not rotating the engine. I did rotate the engine every minute of primming since I was doing both my self. I the oil galley plug was not installed would you get these types of pressures or no pressure at all. the pump is bolted down or there would not be any pressure reading at the guage right? well I really apreciate all your guys advice. Thanks alot.

 

It is possible to get a pressure reading at the top of the block next to the dizzy even if the internal plug is out since that galley one of the first things to be fed after the oil filter, but, I would not expect 80 psi.
Another opportunity for lost oil pressure is the cam retainer plate if it is not bolted tight.

But I go back to the original question: "I took the distributor off and the shaft was not aligned with the oil pumps shaft." what was it that you saw or didn't see ?

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I got oil coming out the oil pressure hole by the dizzy but nothing was getting to the block, heads. I check my outlet at the pump and there was a plug in it..Removed the plug and pressure was restored..
80lbs is possible with the primer shaft and a high RPM drill..
When you see oil getting to heads and lifters, you've got it right..
don't give up..
Duane..

 

Try reading through this series he does a nice job. This section is on the pump http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=471&SID=60

 

Claymore, that is the same issue I had when installing the HH adaptor and pump. I also had to get a different intermediate shaft, that one HH sent was to long. Bob sent me shorter one. That work great..Also the shaft on the new pump, at the tapper is was not radiused, a 90 degree step down, and broke in half..I got a new one from HH and had it radiused and have had no problems..
Duane..

 

Hey guys I finaly figured out the issue last night, I was comparing the matting surface of the intermediate shaft gear and the original camshaft, at this poit I found out that the shaft was sitting flush in the block and on the gear. I took the oil pan out checked the pump ( it was torqued down) removed the pump and check the shaft. I measured the depth of the inter-shaft and compared to the shaft on the pump and it was 3/8 to short. I diassemble the oil pump and checked out the shaft and how it was held to the gear and found it was pressed fit. I pressed the shaft 3/8 ot of the gear and I also drilled a hole from the gear to the shaft and installed a roll pin. now when I get off work today I pan on starting the engine up. yesteday I was pulling my hair out on what could of gone wrong, I started at 7pm and finished at 12:30 am. Installed the engine, hooked up the exhaust, radiator, hoses, starter, drive shaft, carb, all I need is oil and filter tonight. Thanks guys for all your help. I will post later.
Thanks Danny

 

Do I understand that the gear on the intermediate shaft was spinning but not the shaft???
Duane.

 

Actualy the intermediate shaft was not even close to the pump shaft, was off by 3/8" . I pressed the oil pump shaft out 3/8" to make full contact.

 

What oil pump and what int shaft ??


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good thread guys...thanks!

 

Here is a picture of my broken oil pump shaft, due to the right angle step-down was not radiused..Also look at the new shaft, you see the step-down and it's a right angle (really weakens the shaft). My friend radiused the shaft for me and no problems..
I let H.H. Bob Walker know about this and I believe the new shafts are now radiused..
Thought I would share..
Duane..
ps..H.H. Tech forum is good, lot of info on Hemis..

 

The oil pump is original with a new rotor and shaft that I got from a rebuilt kit, the shaft does not have a radius on it, its all straight. the intermediate shaft is the original one. when I rebuilt the oil pump I guess I forgot to check that both shafts were the same length. I wish I would have taken pictures.

 

Hey Duane I started the engine up yester day and I got over 80 psi out on both of my oil pressure guages, I did not gey any oil to the rocker shafts. I check the oil filter and it was full. I remenber some of you guys telling me to check for that plug for the oil galley by the distributor hole, I do have a plug in there. Do any of you guys have any suggestions before I tear this engine apart?

 

You won't get massive amounts of oil to the rockers like on a modern engine. If you really are getting 0 oil you need to check if the rocker stand with the oil passage is in the right place. If it is, then you might need to pull the cam & run a rod down the oil hole to see if the oil hole in the cam bearing is lined up with the passage or not.

 

Thanks for the advise I think that what I'm going to do, with over 80 psi. It seems that the oil is running in to a blocked passage.

 

Yep rocker stands are not all the same and the wrong one in the wrong place will result in your problem.

 

I'm leaning toward the rocker stand idea. Whenever I take a rocker set apart, I metal stamp EVERYthing. That way there is no doubt about where everything goes. Learned that trick the hard way. 80lbs is a bit high for a "controlled leak". That's tough on the rear main seal...

 

First, did you disassemble the rockers? If so, do you/did you have a service manual and use it during re-assembly?
If you do not have a service manual, buy one! Reprints are available on ebay. Bash ebay if you like but ebay is the machine that makes them available.
It is possible that a stand is in the wrong place but look at the stand it self and you can see the oil passage in the casting. The second cam bearing feeds the driver side rockers and the fourth cam bearing feeds the pass side. The stand with the oil passage will then be second from the front on the driver side and second from the rear on the pass side.
If they are in the correct location, then again, did you disassemble the shafts? How did you insure that the shafts are installed properly?
Ok, so everything appears to be in the correct locations but still no oil to the top? Yes, as mentioned, it is possible to have the cam bearing slip/turn and partially block the oil passage. If this is the case a fairly complete teardown is next. In order to check the bearing/passage you will need to remove the heads and if you have a small borescope you can look into the passage and see the backside of the bearing shell or, hopefully, the edges of the shell and a hole through to the cam journal.
Withou a borescope then the cam will need to come out.
If the shell has blocked the passage then continue the tear down.

A far more common answer is simply that 'we' do not have enough run time on the engine and the rocker shafts have not yet filld with oil. You will not see a flood of oil when everything is working right. This is not some brand x small block !!!!!!!!!!
The oil passage in the cam and cam bearing only align once on each rotation. The holes are not large. Massive volumes of oil do not flow. But, this is a good thing because the drain back holes are not much bigger and drain back is gravity. Yes, there are 2, but the rear does 99% of the work. Do not be tempted to groove the cam or enlarge the cam bearing passage unless you have a plan to drain the extra volume.

Once you have the needed 20-30 min of break-in then lower the rpm to 1000 or so and let it run for another 20-30 minutes.

If everything is in its correct location, as it was when Chrysler first assembled it, then it is virtually impossible to not have oil where oil needs to be. If there was some horrific design problem then none of us would have one to play with today as they would have all been scrapped long ago.


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73RR you have real good advise, the rocker shafts were not disassembled , but I did not check if the rocker stands were in the wrong head. I'm going to take the stads off and see if the oil holes line up. I gues that would be the reason the oil psi. is so high.

 

Just like the heads, the rockers, as an assembly, swap from side to side.
Pull the plugs out of the ends of the shafts and run a bore brush through them, many times, with lots-o-solvent. New cup plugs are as close as your parts house.

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On the 291 I just put together this Summer, not only did the rocker shafts need to be scrubbed but I had to use the appropriate sized twist drills to open up the oil passages in every one of the rockers. They had been plugged solid...

 

Thanks 345 desoto for the info, i will have to apply this on my rocker shafts.