Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Well guys from what im seeing here it looks like friday sprint car racing is gonna be a wash most everywhere from michigan to indiana and ohio . Of course were not racing yet here but its still gonna be wet. 60% chance of rain all over.. Saturday looks good at 10% for eldora. Again you can pm me or just show up at the free camping lot we will for sure be there saturday with food and beer.. If we leave early enuff we should be there by noon or 1 pm at the latest .. Were gonna need another for a good game of cards while were waiting for race time .. ...
Dave

 

I thought Rootie was wrong once but I was mistaken

 

This pic is from '73, my dad's first sprint. This car is a Trevis 84' car raced by Chuck Engstrum before we got it. Floyd built three or four of these short W/B cars, I believe in '68. As you can see, it has the IMCA bar, and was built with a roll bar and bolt-on cage. As far as I know the car only raced Ohio and Western Pa. tracks till dad got it. Jerry Stover then drove it in URC and Pa. I ran my first few races in this car also. We always thought the IMCA bar was for the safety of the radiator.

 

I've really enjoyed the reading the back and forth these last few pages!

Your conversation on the Hank Arnold car got me to thinking, and I'm no young pup, I should know this.

Wasn't left side drag link best for dirt, and right side preferred for pavement? In my mind I could understand the right side drag link (more solid control of the r/f) but not the left side set up.

Anyone want to straighten out my left handed mind?

 

"About those nose bars or hoops-my Uncle and dad raced in URC and they alway called them IMCA bars. I think they may have been required in IMCA. They were considered a safety feature along with the roll bar. This was in the 60s."

After referring to the IMCA rule book for 1960, the roll bar or 'roll hoop' as it's refered to in the book, became mandatory after May 1st, 1959. The nose section roll hoop became mandatory after May 1, 1963.

 

I've been doing some work for the Packard Museum in Dayton Oh.

They have some interesting items in their collection.. not to mention the LARGEST "stash" of Packard parts around. (3 HUGE whare houses.. 32,000 sq. ft) I didn't get to excited about "Packard parts" till I got to looking.. An intire row of V-12's half of wich are supercharged lined up on crates with an inch of dust on them, will make a believer out of any gear head! THERE IS SOME NEAT SHIT THERE!

...anyways, here are two cars they have that "kinda" fit in here.. There open wheel and built for hauling ass!

They also have about 80% of the 1923 Packard Indy car, completely dismantled on shelves. I found the Frame in another building, and the steering wheel (still grip tape wrapped with a kill switch on it!) in another area. ..but more on that later (I hope!)

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The "Grey Wolf"
1903 Packard Model K
24 Horsepower
Set world land Speed Record - 1904
Finished 4th in Inaugural Vanderbilt Cup Race - 1904

...and I think it was the "first car to go 80 m.p.h.

 

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and this car.

1928 Jesse Vincent Speedster


Not only is it BEAUTIFUL, but
Read the description on this car. This guy was the real deal!

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Great stuff Josh, you're livin' a charmed life.
PK

 

I'm sure Jim Dillon will post some info on both race cars. There was 100% reproduction of The Gray Wolf at Hershey this year. Guy built the whole car from factory blueprints, really nice job. The fact that he was right up front with it being a repro was very classy IMO.

 

This becomes a potential problem years down the road if someone decides to purchase the car and claim it's the real deal. Then what?

 

The guy that built that "Repo" Grey Wolf is a good friend of the Museum board.. They said he did it exactly like it.. dead on. They like it, and kinda give it "the Nod" and apprieciate what he did.

I agree on both points..

Very cool that he states up front that it's a "Replica"

and yes, it can cause problems down the road..

Zakira Jim has told me some interesting stories about car's and problems like this.

What happens is:

some guy ends up with the engine, and say.. the rear end and rear suspension of a famous old Indy winner. (maybe out of another old car it was put in) He restores the winning car, building a fresh frame, and new body and so-on...

Then another guy finds out his frame, front suspension and grille shell is of that same famous Indy car.. He restores it...

Now, with two of the same Indy winners out there.. Who has the "real" car?

Suposedly the "rule" is: 60% of the original frame makes it legit. But, what won the race? the frame or the engine?

It's a fuzzy area...

You decide.

JD

 

The funny part about that whole situation, is that all the casting work on the engines and transmission (I do not know if this guy had access to them) was done in Socal in the late 80's. A guy cooked up a touring car version of the Greywolf and tried to pass it off as legit. I think that everyone is very wise as to anything associated with Packard/ Greywolf etc.

and per the legal aspect. The English courts laid it all out very clearly, with the history of "Old Mother Gun" I think.

 

FWIW (not much) my thoughts:
Your right in that right side steering is prefered on pavement with a smooth surface and little suspension movement. On dirt with a rough surface and more suspension movement and the inherent bumpsteer of openwheel cars, the r/f is the more 'active' (for the lack of a better term) side, giving more unwanted direct feedback to the steering.

 

Some 1950s Terra Haute action:

Ed Eliason #6 setting up Johnny Boyd for a pass.
Eliason taking the spot
Mike Nazurak #3 working on Duane Carter #7
The ever smiling 'Clown Prince' strapping in the Midwest Mfg. car T/H 1959.

 

Did the car Sachs is pictured in belong to Gelhausen? Do you know who built that car? Good looking Sprinter!

 

Yep that's Carl Gelhausen's car

 

Here's the way I always approached that matter. I tried to keep the drag link in tension (as opposed to compression) when it was being worked the hardest. Since a tar car steers mostly left in the turns you mount the steering for right-side steer. Dirt cars are steering mostly to the right while cornering so you mount it on the left side. Both configurations keep the drag link in tension when experiencing the greatest amount of load.

 

Thanks Roy.
He sure supported the sport for a long time.
That car looks to me like a Curtis, but im not sure.
There were most likely a number of builders in the Midwest, while we only had one notable guy here in the East.
This was mostly Modified country.

 

Rootsgroup,When I built my car I steered from the right side. I thought it was a direct feed back to the steering wheel [no tie rod or anythng to flex]. I do not know if I am right or not but I liked it and felt the track better [dirt or pavement] back to the steering wheel. I know I drove a lot of cars that had toe out but on the car I built I did not like it at all. I tried it on pavement once after everybody said I should and every time the left front would set down the car would want to turn left [I did not have that much weight in the car so the left front was just off the ground off the turn. On dirt I had a little outside weight and did not lift the left front. That was the most comfortable car I ever drove. The one time I put toe out in the car was on pavement and when I would come off the corner and the left would get traction the car would want to dart to the left. I am only talking about an 1/8 inch toe in or 1/8 toe out, but on my car it made a big difference. When I changed it back on the pavement that night I won the feature[evan it was just a TQ feature], it was an UMRA feature.
Jim Graybeal

 

When I changed it back on the pavement that night I won the feature[evan it was just a TQ feature], it was an UMRA feature.
Jim Graybeal[/QUOTE]

Jim, if people only knew how hard it actually is to win a UMRA TQ feature!! Hell they get so many cars just making the show is an acomplishment, I am VERY proud of the fact that I won a UMRA TQ race at Rushville.

 

Just thought I'd throw this in the mix for the early 1920's fans of dirt track racing.
I'm building a 1920's period correct bobtail dirt track racer. Basing the car on four similar cars that have inspried me from the 20s. 88" wheelbase, T chassis, quarter elliptical rear springs, cut down '25 Chrysler shell, etc.
Lots more work to do,...nothing special,...but its getting there. Just thought I'd share since it fits into the sprint car world.

 

I `ve been following your build over on the racing history Group,and now here on the HAMB.
Great bob tail 20s racer! Keep us posted.


Tony D.


A little photo-shop and you look right out of the 1920s.

 

Same here... I've been following your build as well. John Gerber would be proud!

Very cool build, and YES it does fit well here.

Thanks,

Joshua Shaw

 

Thank you very much fellas....

I just picked up two very old friction shocks also! I'll be adding a single friction right in the center on the front axle,... (yes, Gerber did that, but other did as well actually.),... maybe two,.... we'll see.

Got myself a sweet Bosch mag switch, old cast iron foot pedal (for accelerator) from really old sewing machine and a nice set of 26-27 T wire wheels (hope they hold together!!) WITH NOS rubber! Just have to get the hubs blasted, painted and new bearings put in place.... now if I can get some time in between rain drops to do everything! HA!

 

Have you talked to Stan Lobitz? He is on the Racing History group,and is from Hazelton,PA. One of the nicest guys around,and he has lots of old race cars and parts. He might know where you can find parts for your car.

 

Yes, Stan's a neat guy,...we've been in touch now and then via emails and posts. I'll have some time this coming week, so I need to see if I can't get together with him soon!

 

Thanks all for the replies. My minds more in the middle now.(?!)

5C, I never drove, but spent many nights wrenchin' on TQ's, lots at R'ville. EVERY feature winner there, no matter what the year, feels just like you, I'm sure.

Rootsgroup

 

"They also have about 80% of the 1923 Packard Indy car, completely dismantled on shelves. I found the Frame in another building, and the steering wheel (still grip tape wrapped with a kill switch on it!) in another area. ..but more on that later (I hope!)"


I am very interested in anything to do with the Packard Racing history.

I would love to see them restore the 1923 Indy Racer! I have photos from Packard of the car under construction,etc.

 

Josh (and Bob), the Gray Wolf as pictured in the museum is the car that my grandfather "restored", "recreated" (insert whatever term you prefer) back in the seventies. My grandfather had the engine and what was left of a chassis that he bought with the remains of the car. I remember dragging up the twisted frame and it would not sit on a set of saw horses without looking laughable. Although my grandfather had a pretty decent crew to restore his cars (and had these retirees for the most part restoring the cars since the 1940s) he sent the sheetmetal work for the Gray Wolf out. I remember when it came back in and we looked at it and it was not right as can be plainly seen. Well my grandfather had a short rant on it and then told the guys to put it together and he went on to other restoration projects, as well as running his business. I was never happy with it but I had little say, apparently. From day one I said it would never pass but some of the guys, including my uncle said it looked fine which killed any hope of doing it up correctly. I suggested even pie cutting the nose and try and make it look closer but lost that battle as well. It was completed as a museum piece and in its present condition could not make a decent pass in any venue, sad but true. I have spoken to the guys from the Packard museum and they ar philosophical about it and are happy they have at least what is representative of the Gray Wolf and I guess it is what it is.

The replica you speak of was done by Ted Davis out of Oklahoma and he did an absolute fabulous job with his recreation. Years ago a car guy from San Diego called me and tried to get me to be a liason between him and my uncle who owned the Gray Wolf at the time, so that he could buy the Gray Wolf. His intent was to basically scrap the Gray Wolf and put the engine in a recreated Model K passenger car he was going to build from blueprints. I not only told him I wouldn't help him but totally disagreed with what he was planning on doing (if it meant scrapping the Gray Wolf-his interest was in the passenger cars), even with whatever shortcomings I had with the car as finished. He went ahead anyway and built a Model K from scratch-making all new castings including a new engine etc. His go to guy was Alan Schmidt (if my memory for names is still any good). Alan was and is extremely talented and as always did a great job. With all of the castings able to be reproduced, Ted Davis was able to recreate the Gray Wolf as it should look and perform. An excellent job and I told Ted that my wish would be to see what he created be joined up with the engine out of the car in the Packard Museum at a future date. He thanked me for the compliment but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which car looks closer to the real deal.

As to the 23 racer parts, those parts were located over thirty years ago by Brad Skinner who I bought the remains of the V12 OHC Packard 299 racer from. I regret not buying the 23 remains at that time. Those remains have made the rounds from owner to owner for some time and Greg Beck out of Indy tried to see if they could do something with the car back in the eighties or nineties (I think Mecum owned it at the time). I talked to Greg about it and gave him the cam timing specs and whatever little info I had but it never went anywhere. Would be great to see that little jeweled creation come together someday. Hopefully I will be able to get the 299 racer in gear someday as well (I have started on fabricating a new chassis but even though that is on hold until 2010 I hope).

The Packard Vincent Speedster is a great piece that was restored by a friend who also restored the Packard V-12 (Twin Six racer) that was discovered in the jungle of South America several years ago and is now restored and out and about occasionally. I have had a great bunch of fun with showing the Packard Twin Six racer and researching all of Packard racing and I am always happy to hear of others that appreciate the Packard racing stuff, as limited in scope as it is-Jim

The museum Gray Wolf at Birthplace of Speed-Daytona

Ted's Gray Wolf at home on the beach

Ted's car

The Twin Six racer five minutes after the restoration was completed