DeSoto Cam And Roller Lifter UPDATE

Just got off the phone with Donny Johansen at Chet Herbert Inland Empire http://www.chetherbert.com/contact/contact.html . He is able to grind steel billet roller cams for the low deck (276/291)and high deck (330/341/345) DeSotos at a VERY competative price. Next bit of news...the 273-360 LA roller lifters are a DROP-IN on ALL the DeSoto engines, with NO modifications necessary to the connecting link. Do you like apples? Well, how do you like THEM apples...

 

Hi Tony--does this mean that Chet Herbert can get the cam blanks or does the customer need to supply a blank? Great news about the roller lifters too! Thanks, Al

 

Donny HAS the steel blanks, and more are readily available if those run out. And as I said before, they have EVERY Master for EVERY cam they ever made...all the way back to the early 50's...

 

This is GREAT NEWS for us DESOTO lovers!!! Next DeSoto engine I do is definitely gettin' one of their cams. Thanks for sharing this great news!! Al

 

Hey 345...thats is great news !!

Just to avoid any confusion here, can you pls clarify if you are talking about SOLID roller cams or HYDRAULIC roller cams? HYD roller lifter or SOLID roller lifters?

Thanx

Rat

 

RAT - I will be using hydraulic rollers, but solid rollers are identical in all critical dimensions...for all intents and purposes they are identical. You would just need to specify which one you'd be using when you had your cam ground...difference in ramps...

 

where do you buy the roller lifters? are there stock mopar ones that can be had from the auto wreckers? i have a 276

 

Yeah I dont want ramps that are super aggressive (read nasty) on the street.

Im sure Dony could conjure up something that will be ideal !!

Great news !!

Budd...the Com Cams HYD roller lifters are part # 8920-16, Google em and you will find many suppliers who sell them. Summit Racing being one of them.

The stock ones you referred to from the wreckers are for MAGNUM late midel engines....they will NOT suit the earlier 273, 318, 340, 360 engines.

Now as far as cost goes.......AARRGHH !! Guess you gotta do what you gotta do !!

Right? hehe

Rat

 

THAT'S the rub. The rollers are a retofit hydraulic (or solid) roller for the 273-360 LA engines, and aren't available from a bone yard. There is a Chinese company making identical rollers for a BUNCH of $$ less. Quality is suPOSe to be very good. I've heard good things about them. Look up "Chrysler Roller Lifters" on ebay...

 

My first thought is Why not? They have the same diameter. I've got some on the shelf so I'll need to make a comparison.
Also, depending on the design of the aftermarket lifters (hyd or solid) the galleys may need tubes. An option; the lifter bores could be sleeved and a smaller diameter lifter might then be used, then the sleeve could be modified to allow for proper oiling.

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73RR,

Lifter tubes from what I remember, must not be tubed as the HYD lifter (roller or flat tappet) requires pressurised oil from the galley to function properly.

If the oil groove on the HYD roller lifter is uncovered from the lifter bore at max lift, then you will lose oil pressure. This will need to be checked when the engine is mock assembled and you can visually verify that the oiling groove in the lifter body does not protrude from the lifter bore at max lift.

From what I understand, the later hyd roller lifters for OEM small blocks are the same OD as the earlier engines BUT require a "valley spider" to locate and prevent the lifters from rotating in their bores. This spider assembly bolts into the valley in the later OEM blocks -older small blocks(non Magnum) apprently are very difficult to modify in the valley to allow the spider to bolt in.

Also, the later Magnum hyd roller engines oil thru the pushrod to the valvetrain using stud mounted rockers; the earlier SB engines oil thorugh the gallery to the deck then through the cyl head into the rocker shafts and onto the rockers.

Rat

 

345 DeSoto- You need to post this on the HEMI TECH thread .... Wheres scootermcrad? This is great info.

 

The Magnum lifters are singles with a flat milled in them. The flat rides on a corresponding raised flat in the lifter bore that keeps the lifter from rotating...no lifter bar. The LA lifters are a retro fit into an engine that never came Stock with roller lifters. They just happen to drop right into and operate properly in the DeSoto lifter bores and have a lifter bar to keep them from rotating. The limit of lifter bar travel determines whether the lifters have enough up and down travel to operate in the DeSoto bores...which they do. To use the same lifters in a Dodge Hemi, there isn't enough travel in the lifter bar to allow them to operate without binding up. The bar has to be cut/shortened/rewelded to allow them to work...

 

SALTFLATMATT - I already did...

 

Whether hydraulic or solid, OEM or aftermarket, if the lifter body uncovers the 'window' in the bore then a some kind of restriction to the oil flow must be incorporated. Stand a stock hyd lifter next to a roller(of any kind) and it becomes very clear that the actual roller takes up alot of space (height), now put the roller on top of the cam lobe at max lift and (depending on cam lift) the window is likely to be open.

Yes, a 'spider' is part of the Magnum package and casual inspection says a retrofit to the early block is a can do.

A flat side in the lifter bore? Not so sure about that simply from a machining operation stand point. Boring a round hole is one thing but now you're talking about a (draw-through) broach type of operation. Since this is not practical in high volume production the factory used the connecting link. The lifters have flats at the top so that the oem connector can keep the lifter from rotating.

Perhaps someone working in a dealership can opine.

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73RR, I hear what you are saying but youre basically repeating what I have already stated, I feel you have missed the point that I was tring to make.

ANY HYD lifter in a SM MoPar needs oil pressure to function correctly....tubing blocks is simply for SOLID roller lifters or SOLID flat tappet lifters....NOT hyd lifters. The hyd lifter NEEDS full oiling provided by the galley to work. Tubing the lifter galley will prevent the hyd lifter from working properly if at all, so its not really going to be a "fix" if your running juice roller lifters !!

Reducing the base circle of the cam would most likely solve the problem of an uncovered "window" in the lifter bore.

Done it enough times to know.

I dont believe that Comp Cams would have manuf a DROP IN lifter for the SB Mopar and have its oil grooves in the lifter body so much higher that a decent cam would "uncover" the oil groove from its bore.

Would be pretty pointless no?

Rat

 

Hi Rat, I think that we are on the same page.. We agree that hyd lifters require oil pressure and we agree that exposing the window is a bad thing. As you suggested earlier, it will be imperative for the individual to do an accurate mock up of his/her particular package to make damn sure the oiling issue is covered. The single biggest problem I have encountered is that many of the old guys at the cam companies are now gone and sometimes details like the tubes have been lost simply because roller cams for EarlyHemis haven't been real popular during the last 30 years. I sincerely hope that the available sb hydraulic rollers have the oil groove located low enough on the lifter body to see the window in the bore.

If anyone has dimensional data, photos, other comparisons of the aftermarket parts, it would be real nice to see it.

By the way Rat, were you safe from the fires??

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i'm going to stop by the auto wreckers today and see if i can pickup a mopar roller lifter, maybe someone with a 276 desoto lifter can do a little measureing and post the info on here, would be nice if you could mix and match like you can on sbc.

 

Has anyone ACTUALLY done this swap in a DeSoto ?

I have heard many STORIES of this, but NO one i can Pin down has actually done it.

 

According to Donny Johansen at Chet Herbert Inland Empire, they've done it quite a few times. One thing that I don't think people realize is that for the most part, almost all the Mopar hydraulic lifters are the same. When I rebuilt the 57 DeSoto 345 Hemi that's in my Avitar, I bought new, current production, generic Mopar hydraulic lifters for it. There were no issues with bore size, pushrod length, oil grooves, lifter overall length, etc. They were the same as the old ones I removed from my 57 engine...which are the same as the ones in my 55 291 engine. That, together with the fact that the LA retro rollers from Comp cams are manufactured to be a "drop-in" for the 273-360 LA engines, should dismiss any doubts about oil groove problems. I know that when they are used in the 50's Dodge Hemi's there aren't any oil groove problems. Other than the link bar problem, they're a drop-in. I THINK on the Dodge, the push rods MAY need to be shortened. I have a schematic of the hydraulic roller lifter on the way, with all the measurements. When I get it, I will Post it. I've Posted about all the information I have on this..except the lifter schematic...here's a couple pictures...

 

BUDD - I don't know ANYthing about the 318 Magnum Factury/replacement roller lifters. They MAY be a different animal all together...but then again, they may work with a spyder. Like I said, I don't have any idea...

 

Having to shorten the bar is covered in the 315 build on Webrodder. There was a mention somewhere that the bore could be open up & Buick V6 rollers would then fit. 361/413 lifters work, but the oil groove isn't exactly the same as the OEM lifter.

 

I guess that we need to continue this discussion a bit longer ...As far as 'any lifter will work', be cautious because there are differences as to the location of the oil feed groove in the various Mopar hydraulic flat tappet lifters. In addition, there are several other engines that use the same diameter lifter but, again, change the location of the feed groove. All pre-67 Mopar lifters locate the groove in similar place (HT812, VL-8, etc), the later small block (HT2011) has the groove slightly higher and is a good replacement. The 67 and later B-RB has the groove much higher and is questionable.

With regards to the hydraulic roller I offer the following info:
First, my apologies for my camera.


On the left is the standard magnum pair with stock link bar, on the right is an HT 812 hydraulic. Note the size and location of the oil feed grooves and note that the roller has a trough to feed oil from the groove up and into the lifter body. There was a comment earlier that the oil fed from the top down through the pushrod then into the lifter. According to the engineers at TopLine Automotive (www.toplineauto.com) that is incorrect and in fact the feed is from the lifter galley through the lifter in 'normal' fashion. A solid pushrod seals the top of the lifter, a hollow pushrod allows oil to the rockerarm.

Next, I looked at some of the cams I have on the shelf, and although I do not have a DeSoto roller I think a fair comparison can be made using a cast roller for a 354. The cam is a cast, NOS Engle solid roller, with .530 lift. I compared the general, overall, size of the roller lobe to a stock 330 cam lobe with regards to the position of the lifter in the bore. Of the several cast roller cams that I have, it should be noted that they share very similar lobe profiles to one another, that is, that they have fairly small base circles (in the range of 1.1" dia) compared to the 330 base circle (approximate 1.55").
Even though the roller cam has a net lift of 0.36 (compared to the stock 330 net lift of 0.21")(these are approximate numbers), this smaller base circle allows the lifter to operate in essentially the same location as the stock cam/lifter. Further, with the much larger oil groove on the hyd roller lifter body (.43 vs .09) the base circle could be increased and the lifter would still get oil from the block for a much longer period of time than even with the stock components.
The caveat is this: each individual package must be checked to insure that the portion of the lifter body around the roller itself, the portion of the body that houses the roller, does not expose the window in the block at any time.

Who's next ?? Rat ?

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Here is the schematic for the roller lifters...

 

well i stoped into the wreckers today and they have a magnum core engine that i may be able to get the whole roller setup out of, i'll know tomorrow, and i guess for the price i'll just grab it, might just buy the whole engine, i have a 39 plymoth pickup i could put it in, but i want to play around with the roller lifters see what would need to be done to run them in my desoto.

 

Ok im next hehe.

"The caveat is this: each individual package must be checked to insure that the portion of the lifter body around the roller itself, the portion of the body that houses the roller, does not expose the window in the block at any time"

Dude not to be a smartass....but you just repeated what I actually said in my second post which was that each indivdual engine combo needs to be checked for this clearance on mock assembly. This is mandatory for a number of reasons, not just lifter bore clearances.
Which is par for the course on any engine rebuild anyway.

And yes the smaller base circle with change the lifters position relative to the lifter bore.


Rat

 

...did I not say that we were on the same track...???? gggeeessshhhhhh

I passed it back to you thinking that you might have something useful to add.

.

 

so i'm bringing home a magnum 360 core engine the first of next week, it ran well had good oil pressure but smoked a little when you really stood on it, so i'll be checking out if the roller lifters will work in my 276 desoto.

 

Checker auto parts... Is this a good price??

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=COM&MfrPartNumber=892016

 

Uhhh...not really...