Technical Problem resolution - JEGS 81517 lower anvil set for English wheels and use on a HF English wheel

Starting a new thread to get away from the noise of the last 2 threads

Recently, I received an anvil set from JEGS that were not as advertised (as-machined black surface, not the polished surface shown on JEGS web site). I give a public apology for how I handled this. I got in touch with my inner asshole and posted here, before contacting JEGS.

James Flanary, gave a prompt reply. His investigation showed that the received shipment of lower anvils is mixed, containing both polished and black, as-machined anvils. I was emailed a return authorization, with a printable FedEx label. I returned the black anvils. As soon as the FedEX tracker showed on Janes's computer, he immediately priority shipped me a polished anvil set. I got them 2 days later. Super support from James.


The web site is updated and now reads
"JEGS 81517 Details
Bottom Anvil Dies
Note: May Arrive Black or Polished."
.
.
And the price was dropped $11.20

No clue if there are polished or black, as-machined lower anvils in this box.

Part 2, pictures of what arrived and Part 3, compatibility with a HF English wheel follow

EDIT: I am done with Part 2 and Part 3

 

Part 2, the polished lower anvil set from JEGS, received on Friday, 3/8/2018


All 6 anvils were polished. The anvils are stamped with their radius. I verified the radius against a Fay Butler radius gauge, they were spot-on.

In previous threads, there was a comment about surface cracks, no cracks found on any surface.

All the anvil diameters are consistent, greater than 1.9" and less than 2.0"



I found that the runout was excessive. I made these measurements today, 3/10/2019

Runout chart for anvils
NOTES:
1. Measured with a dial indicator, probe located on the center (highest spot) of the anvil,
and perpendicular to the axle of the anvil.
2. Runout is defined as: Maximum dial reading - Minimum dial reading (see picture for setup).
3. All measurements were repeatable within +/- 0.002", most were repeatable within +/- 0.001".
4. The bigger runouts were less repeatable.

Flat HF upper anvil = 0.0005"
3" radius HF lower anvil = 0.0018"
2" radius JEGS lower anvil = 0.015
3" radius JEGS lower anvil = 0.010
4" radius JEGS lower anvil = 0.004
6" radius JEGS lower anvil = 0.006
8" radius JEGS lower anvil = 0.008
12" radius JEGS lower anvil = 0.005

Comments:
Excessive runout means that your pass goes from hard to easy, feels like going up a steep hill and free-wheeling back down. The JEGS dies are 2" in diameter, so the easy/hard cycle repeats approximately every 6-1/4". Practical result is some metal gets a very light stretching (compression) force and 3" later, the metal gets squeezed hard.

I tested the 3" radius dies (both Jegs and HF) using 29 Gauge aluminum roof flashing and 29 Gauge galvanized steel flashing (use what you got). The JEGS anvil, with the hard/easy was hard to maneuver, pull hard, and suddenly the work was flying away from you when you got past the peak. Hard/easy was barely noticeable on the HF anvil/

Conclusions:

1. I am going to keep them and not ask for anything from JEGS (Translation: I'm tired of screwing with this and have some projects that I want to get back to). The 4", 6", 12" and maybe 8" radius anvils should be usable.

2. This batch of anvils has ZERO (0.0) demonstrated quality control. Read the JEGS web site and carefully consider "Note: May Arrive Black or Polished."

I'm done and want to back to the shop. Fire away with corrections, questions and comments.

Part 2, pictures of what arrived and Part 3, compatibility with a HF English wheel follow

 

Part 3: JEGS lower anvils on a Harbor Freight English wheel

Disclaimer: A total of 4 days in Gene Winfield and Joel Davis / Ed Smoot classes do not make me an expert. I have not made actual parts on my new HF English wheel.

The English wheel was purchased, in November 2018, in Lake Havasu, AZ. I was on my way back from Gene's class - the box barely fit in the back of my Subaru.

The details on the JEGS lower anvils are in my 2 posts immediately above.


Both lower anvils have a 3" radius. The HF, on the left, is 3" in diameter, your work will travel approximately 9-1/2" for every revolution of the anvil. The JEGS, on the right, your work will travel approximately 6-1/4" for every revolution of the anvil.


JEGS 3" radius anvil in the HF lower holder. In an older thread, someone suggested that the corners (see the arrows (courtesy of Officer Obey - for you Alice's Restaurant fans)) need to be trimmed for projects requiring a tight radius. A 5MM Allen key (wrench) is needed for the end bolts. No problems encountered with mounting the JEGS anvils on the HF holder.

See Part 2 above for problems encountered with the Jegs anvils.

I'm done and want to back to the shop. Fire away with corrections, questions and comments.

 

Sounds like JEGS customer service did what they could to make this right. The customer service reps don't control their supply chain, inventory, or shipping- all they can do is work with the resources they have available at the time they get a call.
Kudos to you for the public apology here - but you might want to include that in the original thread.

 

I guess if someone considers these anvils as starting points and has the skills and equipment to true them to a much lower runout, then they might be worth buying.

I can't see rolling smooth sheet metal with rollers (anvils) that get thick then thin as the sheet metal passes over them.

 

I did apologize near the end of both other threads: "I've received a lot of heat on this, rightly so. I should have handled this differently."

EDIT: On the oldest thread, on Feb 26, 2019, I posted "I am now the "Crash-test-dummy". The new ship date is 03/04/19, the price is still $139.99. I ordered a set and will report back when they arrive."

Turns out JEGS provided the "crash" part of the deal and I provided the "dummy" part. Too soon old, when is the smart supposed to arrive?

 

I found a good use for my JEGS lower anvils - The box, with all 6 anvils, makes a great weight when tracing patterns.

Today, I received 4 lower anvils from Eastwood - very happy with the quality - more here

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...d-lower-anvil-set-for-english-wheels.1162165/

 

Wish I had seen this before ordering the Jegs English Wheel. I spent an extra $150 on this wheel compared to the unit from Harbor Freight, because it comes with anvils, and because those same Eastwood anvils are now over $200. Turns out the anvils that come with the Jegs kit are basically completely useless. Pretty bummed…

 

Maybe they're okay now, it's been three years.
Let us know.

 

I think @crazycasey gave you the answer.

NOTE: The Jegs website still says: "Note: May Arrive Black or Polished."

Link: https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Perform...LI6-ko83kWNWb1bAXIbggxaz900AJyn4aAv_pEALw_wcB

I am still using the box of 6 Jegs anvils as a weight when tracing patterns.

Russ

 

He said he ordered the Jegs English Wheel, not that he got it.
Maybe he has it now and found the anvils no good, or maybe he hasn't gotten it yet, but from reading this thread concluded that the anvils will be no good.

 

Google says that the English Wheel was first created circa 1900. I wonder how the anvils were made then and how true they were? If say they were true, it wouldn’t take a CNC lathe, etc to true them up.
Are the anvils “egged/out of round” or drilled off center?
My JC “Introduction to Machine Tools” class I took years ago, has me thinking of a way to try and save them.
Heck, it’s not like you could render them anymore useless

 

Do they call it an "English Wheel" in Germany or Sweden or other furrin' countries?

 

Google said it was developed in Britain as I recall. So my guess is yes they do

 

Sorry to leave you guys in suspense. I wanted to work out some kind of resolution with Jegs before I posted anything.

My anvils weren’t anywhere near as bad as some of Russ’ ( @TrailerTrashToo ) Jegs anvils, but neither were they anywhere near as GOOD as the one’s he got from Eastwood.

All of my anvils arrived polished with tool marks in the surface from being mishandled.

All of my anvils had about 0.005” runout. Some were a little worse than others, but nothing as bad as 0.018-0.020”. I measured them with a dial test indicator (not a dial indicator) with 0.0001” resolution. That said, it is still incredibly difficult to ensure that I am perfectly centered on the peak of the anvil, so, it’s hard to make much of my observed numbers. They look like Hell when you roll the upper and lower anvils together. My upper anvil was nearly perfect; only about a half a thou runout on it.

Also, all of my anvils had bearing issues. In some anvils the bearings were incredibly loose. Some were gritty. And in one of my anvils, the bearings were so tight that they seize up when installed. I haven’t measure to see if it’s a bearing issue or an anvil issue, but my money’s on the latter.

Jegs DID REFUND ME the full cost of their anvil set, as if I had purchased it separately from their English Wheel kit, which puts my into the wheel the same price I would be, had I purchased the Harbor Freight model instead. I am most likely planning to buy the Eastwood anvil set, but I do have one idea I will expand upon further down in this post.

I posted a YouTube video, which is an unboxing, setup, and review of the Jegs English Wheel kit. I gave what I feel is a very fair representation of it. You can find that below, if you care to watch it:

I’m VERY curious to hear your ideas, Budget 36. Though I also have an idea, and I don’t think mine will be very hard to pull off.

Metal Ace (I think…blanking on the name right now) is a quality US English Wheel manufacturer. They offer their anvil sets with “industry standard flat spots” (their terminology). My understanding is that the center strip of their anvil is flat. They say that the 2” radius die has a very narrow “flat spot”, while the 12” radius’ “flat spot” is more substantial. This is to increase contact area per anvil, resulting in faster panel shaping. These “flat spot” anvils are dissimilar to a “true radius” anvil, which is what the Jegs anvils are supposed to be. But I think I could take 5, 10, even 15 thou worth of runout OUT of the Jegs anvils right in the center quite easily on the lathe, effectively turning them into a “flat spot” anvil.

My understanding of the English Wheel is that the radius in a lower anvil is really only for clearance. The area of the anvil stretching the panel really doesn’t know what the radius of the anvil is, if that makes sense. I would LOVE to hear from anybody who knows more about flat spot anvils, and whether or not I’m understanding this correctly, and if, thusly, my approach is sound.

I had previously felt very defeated about my own ability to shape these various radii with any better concentricity than the 10 year old Chinese boy who most likely made them for Jegs. But it seems like maybe I don’t have to.

All kidding aside, I hope they’re not kids, making this stuff. I asked my old hotrod shop boss for a raise once. He told me that when I could make a spun aluminum gasser tank as good as the 10 year old in China, I could have the raise.

 

SOS - Same Old "Stuff" from Jegs....

Russ

And a note for those who have not read all the previous threads. The Jegs lower anvil set are all approximately 2" in diameter - The lower anvil that came with the Harbor Freight English wheel is approximately 3" in diameter. The Eastwood lower anvil set that I previously tested also was approximately 3" in diameter.

 

I managed to get the set of lower dies from HF when I bought my English wheel. I snagged what had been their display model on the floor since the day they opened when the store was about three years old. I don't remember what I paid but I got a seriusly steep discount on it.

That aside, when I took Gene's metal working class in Post Falls a few years ago he told us that it was wise to dress our dies on occasion. He also stated that we should dress our body hammers and dollys to keep the finishes smooth .

 

The frames on those style wheels flex so much I can't imagine runout is going to make any difference at all to how they perform.

 

I was surprised to see how they're made. I would think it wouldn't be much more trouble to cut out big "C" shaped pieces of plate and then box that. Then extra section width could be added at the areas of higher stress.

 

A quote from my Post #2 (above):

"Comments:
Excessive runout means that your pass goes from hard to easy, feels like going up a steep hill and free-wheeling back down. The JEGS dies are 2" in diameter, so the easy/hard cycle repeats approximately every 6-1/4". Practical result is some metal gets a very light stretching (compression) force and 3" later, the metal gets squeezed hard."

This occurred at contact pressures that did not cause frame flex.

Russ

 

After reading your post, I checked the run-out of my Jegs dies. I had two dies that measured .004 and the rest of the set were .001. I purchased my set of dies in late September 2022 and they were packaged individually in a wooden box and they were polished. Maybe Jegs decided to up their game and correct the concern.