Technical Now that the last machine shop closed...

Last week the last machine shop - where I used to have my engines bored and decked -here in the neck of my woods closed.
Not because of not enough work, but because of not enough workers.
When most of their old hands retired, they couldn't find anyone to close the gaps.

That reminds me of my late granddad, who run a repair shop and taught me most of what I know about engines and cars. He started before the war, boring engines while still in the vehicle with some obscure mobile device. He had a machine that would grind down, oversized pistons including the proper skirt taper to the right size, and an other one to shave tires. He was the first one here, that had a full blown Sun engine tester.

He forgot more about engines than I will ever know. When he died 20 years ago, a lot of that knowledge died with him forever. I still have some of his tools, the Sun tester, all the stuff he taught me and some memories. But they start fading as I get older.

All that knowledge, and all that stuff you can't teach cause it is based on gut feeling and requires decades of experience is lost - not only with my grandpa, but with every machinist and mechanic that retires.

Sometimes I wonder where our society is heading with this. Like we still have no clue how the pyramids where build back than, will future generations probably have no clue how to fix/overhaul an old engine. It will be a total mystery to them.

Thanks good there are sites like this, that hand down at least some wisdom, and there are still young folks that are interested and eager to learn - so I still have hope.

Frank

 

All knowledge is out there...we are living in a period of history..just like the past . things , societies come and go and so does the knowledge...pyramids were build in my opinion using vibrational , sonics or some other tech....not tools like we have today....enjoy the day and have fun...the future is what it is and there usually is not enough from the masses to realize the hidden hands that drive the world events..

 

My grandfather used to say to me,
" There is nothing new in the antique shop "
" There is nothing new under the Sun "
To a certain extent, he was correct.

The great pyramid of Cheops, the base covers 14 acres square, they used a water trench all the way around it, to level the foundation to within 1/4 " all the way around it, the trick was, how to keep that water from evaporating in the hot desert sun, while trying to make adjustments ?

The Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, and Egyptians, no doubt, were pretty high tech for their day and they left behind some pretty incredible evidence of their skills and ability's.
Sadly, no instruction manuals, as to how they did it!

But just like that machine shop that you are describing, when the shop closed, all of that experience and knowledge went with it, and that is a real shame indeed!

With today's high tech phones and camera's and the fact that we as a civilization, should do all we can to record as much as we can, all of the history and knowledge that we know does exist in our older folks, that have that knowledge and experience, whether its on paper or in the form of pictures and video, so that the knowledge, we have right now, can be used in future generations.

That being said, one can only hope, that the phones with their cameras, can be used to do things like that, rather than taking pictures of the food on the plate, from some trendy restaurant, to post to FB or IG or some other electronic vortex, that will automatically delete itself after 1 week !

Just my humble opinion.

When is the last time you actually saw one of these, and actually had the person count change backward from the $20.00 bill you gave them, for the $7.67 item you bought ?


A solar powered calculator is useless on a rainy day!
Thanks for posting from Dennis.

 

Things change, and we adapt. The newer generation has become a "disposable" society somewhat in which items are not repaired anymore, just tossed. Remember TV/Radio/ VCR repair shops? It was mentioned in another thread that our hobby is in its "twilight years". I truly believe we are there.
We are lucky, and still have 2 machine shops in a reasonable distance. 1 has become a mostly one-man operation that limits incoming work. The other is swamped with work and has a small workforce. I currently have a Nailhead motor in that shop after a 6 month wait, and no promise of when it will be gotten to.

 

My late friend, Bobby Roberts, was the third generation in Roberts and Son's Machine Shop in Chattanooga, TN. A couple of years before he died, he mentioned how much he would like to retire but couldn't find anyone young to take over his business. He had excellent employees, but he needed someone to take over the business. He could have just quit and closed up as the owner of another local shop had done but he felt an obligation to his longtime customers. He was working in the shop the day he died and, when the last of the scheduled work is done, the shop will close. I truly feel that this is a generational thing. The first mechanical thing I took apart and tried to put back together was a windup clock. I built model planes and cars. There are a few young ones who are interested in things like that but, not many. My grandchildren aren't interested in anything that I can teach them about the way things work. I made a good living for my family welding on everything from structural steel to nuclear powerhouses and they aren't interested enough to learn any of it because it requires practice and practice is boring. Sorry, I'm ranting.

 

I have this conversation regularly. Sadly it limits my enthusiasm for the hobby, between my shortcomings and the looming lack of skilled shops and even guys doing side work i’ll be lucky to finish the projects i have started

 

People aren't going to be reboring blocks for Nissan Rogues. The newer hot rodders go with things like LS engines that can be found all ready to go already.

This is like asking why young people didn't continue to want to learn the art of shoeing a horse. There is NO future in it but for a very few.

 

Sounds like an opportunity for you.
Also sounds like a shop that either didn’t think ahead or care to hire or train apprentices.
Can’t find help usually means not willing to pay or not willing to train.
I was the product of an apprenticeship, I have several students involved in the same.
I’ve even heard some older guys say why should they teach someone or pass on knowledge to others they worked hard for. You can hoard knowledge just like hoarding parts and cars.
I was lucky enough to not to be around those types growing up.

 

We have a very successful and very busy machine shop in northern Alberta, in a very rural setting. Can’t tell me there isn’t a market.

 

It's hard to fight the fact that wages have not kept up with prices/inflation/cost of living. Since I started working at shops, inflation has increased 410%. What was a dollar is $4.10 now. I can remember $70 an hour for the skilled machine work. My friend still has his shop and can't charge $280 an hour and sell any work. If he could, then he could afford to pay a skilled machinist what they are really worth. As it is, why would someone grind cranks when they can make the same money making coffee with a bunch of girls in an airconditioned shop? I have a son working in a beautiful state park. He makes the same money as the 50 year old machinist at my friend's shop. I can't tell him to go learn a trade with a straight face. There will always be machine shops. Eventually, their skills will become so scarce, they will be able to charge the true cost of having that kind of work done. I also worked at a metal art/craftsman shop. They had young blacksmiths, foundrymen, craftsmen & women and designers working there. (including 20-something girls that could shame most of us in a metal shop) The skills they had were all "lost arts". The things they built sold for a price that reflected the rarity of their skills. Because of this, they could pay young people a fair wage for their skill set. When the price of machine work reaches that level, shops will be able to pay a wage that people, (young and old), will be willing to work for. The 50 year old machinist knows he could make more money changing oil and wiper blades at Jiffy Lube. Luckily for my friend, he likes what he does. Mike

 

We, as a set of people, are our own worst enemy. Everyone wants their offspring to have a better life than they have experienced, which is a good, lofty goal. Parents that had to go to war and return to work in dirty, hot and dingy factories or spend their days out in the fields in the heat and sunshine. Thus the push for more education, a good thing again as more education usually means better pay and working conditions. But that has created its own problems, the loss of interest in the trades. Parents didn’t want their offspring to have to sweat, toil, and get their hands dirty, so they pushed them into office type jobs. Not all, of course, but most of them. They taught them manual labor with their hands was below them. Mike Rowe is one guy who has recognized this problem, and tries to get young folks interested in the trades, plumbers, carpenters, welders, etc. Not every kid needs or wants a college degree, many of them are just like us, they enjoy getting their hands dirty and actually doing something other than punching a keyboard all day. It is sad we have became a throw away society where it’s easier to replace something than actually fixing it. Even though as our generation fades and many once staples of life such as machine and welding shops close up, there will still be a few young folks willing to pick up the torch and run with it, we will just have to hunt them up.

 

We have over 250 students in our auto, machine and welding classes.
But I know, young folks don’t care.
Fortunately, it’s starting to pay off for the ones that do

 

When I lived in Connecticut the state closed the Vo-Tech schools. Now Connecticut wants to have Vo-tech schools again. Did somebody finally wake up to our needs ? I took auto shop, machine shop, and wood shop in high school. I wish that I had gone to what we called Trade Schools back in the 1950's. I could have learned more. I can run the machines, but I don't consider myself to be a machinist.

 

Part of the problem was that sometime in the late 70s/early 80s, a group of educators (the silent generation and baby boomers) thought that trade skills wouldn’t be needed as automation and computers continued to evolve. Funding for tech classes started to decrease, schools started to push college on every student and shop classes closed.
Once the baby boomers started to retire, businesses struggled to find replacements. Business finally noticed that high school tech classes were gone. Now states are trying to catch up.

But we still haven’t learned. A school system in Al is planning to close an auto program to turn it into an auto manufacturing program. Imagine the IQ it takes for administration to see a need to train students how to build cars, but doesn’t think these same cars will ever need to be repaired.
Humans are their own worst enemy

 

The government here is starting to recognize the problem, our apprenticeship funding is being increased, we are working on ways to get more people in trades.

 

You can’t say that the trade is dying. There are people running very successful engine machine shops for modern engines and some vintage ones too.

Tim McMaster at Hanford Auto supply is one.

Theres also a very successful diesel/gas engine machine shop here that built my son a very stout Chevy LT gas engine with twin turbos that put 780 HP to the rear wheels on the dyno recently.
It’s in a 4 door truck and it’s an animal.

Performance lives on just slightly different as time moves along.

Lots of youngsters are entering the trades, my son became an electrician.

We’re still seeing strong demand and interest in the trades up here.

 

A very successful machine shop implies one. Hey, if I was the only beer store, I'd expect to be busy as well.

What you fail to realize is the up-trickle effect. In some ways it keeps you safe and free because your last to be affected. But eventually you do feel it and seclusion doesn't prevent it from reaching you.

I know this because as a kid I was living in Southern California. It took 10 years for cousins in Edmonton to see a Mustang bike past when I was riding one. We were relying on radio for news and they were watching B&W TV for goodness' sake.

Maybe the span isn't as great now and it was then, but, think the covid response and you'll understand my meaning.

I do know that most every little town and community from here to the peace country has been losing people, shutting down services.
And just because a business has its doors open doesn't mean it's a profitable business. Some just stay alive because they bought in before the cost to buy it rose to unaffordable levels.

I bet you don't see much homeless in Grimshaw but let me tell you, in Edmonton it's a way of life for those who left small town Alberta to come here.

And while our government and smarter them me types try and figure it out, as history has shown it to be true, they won't.

 

Like Anthony said above,,,,,the teachers decided we didn’t need any trade school .
I graduated in 1981,,,,,we had a trade school about 12 miles away in the next county .
Our teachers wouldn’t even discuss it,,,,,they were adamant that we all needed to go to college.
So,,,,,here we are all these years later,,,,,and most didn’t go to college .
Everyone can’t go to college ,,,,,,many don’t have the grades,,,or the inclination,,,,,and especially the money .
Many that did go were just bums and partiers,,,,,,a lot of them are dumb as a rock in my opinion,,,,,,,,Helpless to do anything for themselves .

However,,,,,,there has been a resurgence of interest in the trades now,,,,,and many young people here are getting courses in tool and die,,,,,,auto repair,,,,industrial maintenance,,,,lineman school,,,,and many other things .
It might just work out after all !

Tommy

 

Our local automotive machine shop has the same problem. He had one young employee that he was training to take over the business but when the kid got married and had a kid he decided that he needed a job that paid more and had benefits. Very responsible on his part, but it left the shop with a questionable future. The other employees are the same age or older than the owner and the owner would like to retire. I’m looking ahead and getting anything that I might want done into the shop now. Just like I’m doing with chrome work.
The passing of time has brought a tsunami of obstacles to our hobby, California is closing chrome shops, paint is getting ridiculously expensive and harder to get, machine shops are closing, sources for our used car parts (junk yards) are drying up and metal prices have skyrocketed. It’s often discouraging, but that’s when I take my coupe or the wife’s Corvair out for a ride.
Hey, when I’m gone I won’t care about any of this or whether it continues on so I’m just going to enjoy it my way while I can.

 

When my son went to school, he enrolled in a college that had an automotive engineering program, after two years of taking required general classes, he lost his way and quit. He enrolled in a vocational college and the CNC machining program. He is now a high end CNC machinist and makes good money. He has made some really cool stuff for companies. He was later asked to be part of a forum for local business and the trade school as to why young people are not taking trades programs. He stated to the the attending that the high schools only push colleges and not trades, when getting to a trade program they make them take many classes that have nothing to do with trades. (liberal arts) He had already taken these classes and college. They have nothing to do with manufactring or trades. He is very happy with the direction that his career has taken. I attended the same trade school 40 years ago, I did ok for myself.

 

While I don’t disagree it is up n LaCrete, there is also one in Peace River. My point was they are and have been in business along time and the one in Peace River just moved into a much bigger building. We actually do have a fairly large homeless population for the size of the area. Our local towns are working hard to bring back all the small businesses. Without being political the government is increasing funding for apprenticeship so it’s on us to come up with ways to improve things. We have a very good executive that fully supports trades, all we can do is keep trying!

 

I respectfully disagree with your comment about shoeing horses. Farriers are some of the most sought-after people on the planet and, if they are good, can command very healthy fees. Horse owners, from the hobbyists who own only one horse to the mega-breeder who is involved in racing, require licensed farriers to maintain their substantial investments. There are farrier schools in practically every state. Some are private and offer short as well as long term courses depending on the student's interest and commitment. Several are at colleges with equine veterinary schools and offer a degree. As with anything else, how well the graduate of one of these schools does after he or she goes into the workforce depends on their willingness to apply themselves to their craft.

 

There was a time in this country, where a kid could get his first job at a gas station, pumping gas, and getting acquainted with such elements as lubricating a car, changing tires, balancing wheels.
Well those days are gone and have been gone for some time now!
Which is sad indeed!
A lot of us Baby Boomers, got our first exposure, to turning a wrench at gas stations.



There was a time in this country, when a specialty item that required precision and craftsmanship, was a given, well, that element still exists, but to a very limited market.

" Example, a wooden propeller shop in the 1920's "

Engels Coach Shop in Joliet Montana is a prime example of that, you can see his work on YouTube. But he is a one man shop, and there is a long waiting list, to get things built, or repaired by him, which is of high quality to be sure, but as stated, to a very limited market. That being said, its a noble trade, and he is the last of a breed of true craftsmen, that can actually build what he builds.



When I was a kid in high school, we had metal shop and we learned on vintage South Bend lathes of this type, that were surplus from WW-2. We were also fortunate enough to have a Bridgeport milling machine, none of the students were interesting in how to run it or what it could actually do. I got interested in that milling machine, and it was fascinating to me. I was fortunate to have a good shop teacher that actually knew, what the milling machine was capable of. Rare these days, that machines like that, catch the attention of kids in high school today, ( with the exception of the kids that @anthony myrick ) has mentioned. Good for them, its refreshing to know that those kids are hopefully learning something that will benefit them and those around them.

 

Diversity as a requirement instead of merit killed one of the best apprenticeship programs in the nation. A thriving program that allowed anyone to apply and take the test usually had about 1500 applicants. 40 were chosen from that test each year for 3 years, and they got good people.
Fast fwd a few years and a decision was made to allow only current employees of the Ordinance Station to apply for the apprenticeship. They had to hire 40 people from a "field" of 60 applicants. To top it off, secret training (teaching the test) was provided to only certain people. (I was an EEO counselor at the time and a lady came to me and complained that she was in the training class and they were excluding certain people. She had asked why and the Womens Co-Ordinator told her "because you are the ones who need the training)
Anyway, a fellow who had received an award just a month before (Employee of the Month) and came out 9th on the register was not selected for the apprenticeship.Meanwhile a lady(?) with a really poor work record who came out about 54 (out of 60) got chosen. They found her passed out in the womens restroom on overtime with an empty whiskey bottle on her chest. Just one of many things she did.

The first thing the apprentice program did was sent selectees to "apprentice school" for 3 months. Many of the applicants couldn't do the classroom work. They flunked out of the apprenticeship immediately. The lady above had worked in the shops on station for about 15 years. She failed 3 of the 4 courses. One of them was "Basic Hand Tools". A decision was then made that it would be "embarrassing" to the employees to make them return to their old jobs, so new jobs in offices were created for them.

The next year there was no new test given and the apprentice program was closed down.

When I entered the apprentice program, I competed for the opportunity. When selected, I was making $3.33 an hour and accepted a $1 cut ($2.32) in order to get into the program. It has served me well during my lifetime. I hated seeing it destroyed by the bureaucracy.

 

I guess we should go out of our way to recognize a good job when it is done and tipping the workers never hurts either.

 

Well call me a knuckle head but... I couldn't remember the question. Then I scrolled back and realized there wasn't one. It was a comment about circumstance.

As one door closes another open's up. Could be a young guy just inherited a windfall as buddy retires out, beaten and worn from a life of toil. One only hopes the kid spends it wisely.

I can't blame him. You realize eventually, it all a distraction from the realization it's coming to an end you can't avoid by working it away. And there are easier ways of making money then shoeing horses. Like watching a CNC do your work for you.

It was mentioned about shoeing horses. I'm not saying there isn't money in horses, but next to owning a boat, it's hard to say what costs the average guy more to own. I will say this, the boat engine guy has the advantage there only in the skill is more readily transferable.

And regarding education, and increased advantage... bs.
That's right, they train them only as smart as they need them to be, to the fields of entry they feel a demand or a need. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't.
Don't believe me, ask a service tech. The nursing student. The welding operator.

Like whose job was it that they didn't forecast a need for all those old people to have their toenails clipped?

What I see happening is a divergence. Gas has gone up, supply's disrupted, and we can't catch up to the back log of carp happening. NO, I did mean the fish. I meant crap, typed crap and the grammar checker said are you sure you didn't mean...Carp it is.

The powers that be sitting back wondering where it leads, what falls out from it.
Can you see the guy in the back saying, I told you it could happen, we ran out of gas we need more horseshoers now.

You guy's who harp on China, they at least make it happen. Empty whole country sides into cities show what they can make happen. Here, death by a thousand nudges in direction. Cause you want to know why, over there everyone can do everything. We are task specific.

Lament the loss of a machine shop, but also that a failed opinion was set in motion, gained entrenched acceptance, that in education the students are customers, to know more than just enough isn't necessary, and that the paper is worth more than the knowledge.

One day people, it will all fall apart. Unless you're in Newfoundland, then it's going to happen an hour later.

I have to agree with the first part, but the last part... I respectfully disagree.

 

The people you know have stopped machining.....
Go ask racers in budget classes, Ask at car shows - where are people having work done ?


Example: 25 years ago in my my hometown, local farmer also raced circle track, had everything needed to do blocks and heads, and would build class race engines over the winter.
He'd be about 55-60 now - doubt he sold his machine shop. He's just not racing or building engines to sell anymore.
I should go see him.

 

Just to be clear, my son can also run manual mills and lathes and not just watch a CNC do the work for him.
He worked at a machine shop after school every day while going to school. He has been trained well by both the Vocational school and the shop where he worked.

 

Well, just to add more confusion. My farrier just left a bit ago, two trims, no shoes, 80 bucks. Lady works hard and not expensive. About an hours worth of work, then off to the next stop.
A good farrier is always in demand, maybe not in a big city, but is in a rural area.
And regards to trades, my local to me JC has a machine shop class, all but a few machines are manual controls, ie not CNC. When I took the intro class a few years back, instructor told me I was lucky to get in as it fills up fast.
Means there’s gotta be work out there for those who want to do it, or like me

 

You are missing the point sir. Not to say your son is special, or his training wasn't top class, just that in the last 50 years, the education system hasn't improved. It's been dumbed down, diluted, had the bar lowered, expectations dropped.

I'm not sure where you live, or he does, what school he went to or where he worked to learn his craft, but if you look around past the gate, you will know he is a lucky young man to have gotten it and gone where he has.

Most do not learn much manual machine work because it isn't as in demand as CNC is. More brain less finger and thumbs. They want tuna that tastes good Charlie.

Make no mistake, I commend your kid for seeing the future. Getting in young my buddy Clayton took it a step further. He did a welding Apprenticeship after his machining apprenticeship then advanced into Mechanical Engineering.

In the big city they have bigger budgets and more big heads to impress. The JC can't afford to fill the spaces with CNC and frankly, the nation isn't out of the need for guys who can manually work a lathe. There is to many around and rich old guys to buy them up.
But ask yourself, why you didn't learn the skill in school? Cause I did.

Why were the shop classes shut down? To many fingers being lost? Remember, they want skilled workers. The skill isn't turning knobs and which buttons to push.




Like showing IX and saying make it a 6.





SIX for those of you struggling.