Picked up a '30 A Coupe with a Y block and a 3 speed toploader (I guess- haven't gotten around to really identifying it). It's got something in the neighborhood of a 4.50:1 rear end and and I've been thinking about a T5...then you read that they're not really all that stout. Not that my Y block is terribly stout, but it seems like it would be a costly endeavor for everything needed to adapt the T5. I got to thinking about the Borg Warner T85 OD transmissions- seems like a tranny made in the 50s that originally came behind Y blocks would be simpler to make work. What can you tell me about them as far as what they'll hold up to for power/ torque, how difficult they are to find, where I might even find one for sale that's been gone through (any gurus out there?), and whether or not it can take the occasional beating. I'm really just looking for an extra gear for the highway. Thanks in advance.
The T85 will take a beating. Ford put them behind nearly every large displacement car motor they made, including 427's in Galaxie's and 430's in Thunderbirds, and most 1960's F-Series Pickups. Be careful when searching as T86's often pop up and they look very similar. The T86 will not take a beating. I tore one up with a 351W in a '51 F-1 during a spirited clutch drop exercise. They pop up in the classifieds here on a fairly regular basis, I have sold a couple myself at swap meets, and worst case, check out those online auction sites. There is a full line of rebuild kits still available, and if you want to bypass all that, I am sure you can use the old interwebs to track down a transmission shop that will ship you a freshly rebuilt unit in exchange for a fat stack of cash.
While I've always been a fan of the various BW ODs (in spite of their limitations), I don't think this will be 'simpler' in your case. The deal-breaker will be shift linkage. Both the T85 and T86 are side shift boxes, and both are fairly long compared to other manual trans. Floor shifters for these were never common and with the OD solenoid in the way you're limited in just where you could mount one. In a narrow car like an A the shifter will end up under your right leg and it might be very tough to keep it off from under the seat. While this trans was used 'back in the day' in the early cars, all the installs I recall seeing used reworked manual shift steering columns, usually out of a '40s-era Ford. There's a fair bit of custom linkage fab work involved if going that route, plus the probable rebuild of the shift linkage. So while Frozenmerc is correct that the T85 is the heavy-duty option, it may be worth looking at the medium-duty T86. The T86 differs from the T85 in that while it's a side-shift design, it's a top-loader case so I believe it can be converted to a top-shift with the right shift tower. Finding the tower may be difficult, check with the jeep guys. With a stock or mild Y-block it should live as long as you keep the abuse to a minimum. They don't like to be speed-shifted or clutch dumps... You'll also need the kickdown switch, kickdown relay, manual control cable and the associated wiring connecting all this together and to the ignition system. Some will advocate using a simple toggle switch for control, I won't recommend that. One miscue when shifting OD manually can damage the OD solenoid/shift pawl. These really work best when installed as designed. These have two flaws; one is if parking with OD enabled (control cable pushed in) you can't depend on leaving the car in a forward gear to keep it parked, it will coast away. You have to either lock the OD out or shift into reverse (which locks out the OD internally). Two, you have almost no engine braking going downhill in OD, going down long hills can turn into an unintended brake test... LOL. A T5 swap may prove to be easier... As far as strength, a 'world class' T5 will be plenty good enough for your Y-block. Educate yourself on what to look for before buying. There's also the Ford toploader 3+1 OD trans (based on the Ford four-speed), the iron-cased versions are plenty tough enough for your use and while it's set up as a side-shift, top-shift towers were used on that trans in Jeeps so it can be converted.
Well, Steve beat me to it. But I thought a top loader, not a top shifter. My mistake. The T86 R10 overdrive came behind thousand of cars, including all Y blocks up to the 292’s The 312’s got T85’s Narrow tires, they’ll do fine if not abused. Might even outlast the rear end. Big engine, hard launches, you need the T85 R11 combo. As stated, they’re tough. More money, harder to find. Having run T86’s, T85’s and T-5’s behind stout Y blocks, the big deal is the lack of a 1st gear synchro on the early trans. A stout T-5 isn’t cheap, a really good one is a TKO. My 320 cid in the bird, with the WC T5 easily turns the 235 tires with the posi unit. But I’m not dropping the clutch at 5000rpm. No problems in years. But not a racer. I’m sure a 351 would kill a T86 pretty quick. Pick your usage, pay your money, drive accordingly. Call http://www.vanpeltsales.com/VPPSweb/VPPS-homepg.htm for parts and information on the old trans. Mac knows it cold.
Thanks for the information. This is quite a bit to think about. The issue with the Y block and the T5, at least from what I'm finding, is all of the stuff that I'd need to adapt it. Maybe I take my time and start collecting.
Little background on how they work. Original manual. http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/TechData/BWOverdriveManual.pdf
I munched the R10 od planetary in an edsel with a stock 292....the R11 would be a better choice, if you decided to use the BW. Or put a milder rear gear in it and drive it around with the transmission it has now. You might find that it works pretty good. Something around 3.25-3.50, depending on tire size. Y blocks don't mind the RPM.
I don't think you need all that much 'stuff', assuming the bellhousing you have is a OEM Ford bell. The adaptors are fairly cheap... ADAPTER Ford Y-block/ Ford T5 CCW-Rotation - Modern Driveline , you just need a Ford T5 to match up. New clutch disc, rear mount, and driveshaft yoke/length changes and that should do it. If you have a pre-'49 trans in there now, installing the later OD will need pretty much all the same type parts as a T5 swap, and you may need them anyway as not all later BW OD trans used the same input/output splines.
Little more info on the T-5 from Mummert’s site. http://www.ford-y-block.com/t5in-cars-bird.htm Whether you want to move the shifter over I don’t know. One thing I was warned about when I did the T-5 Yblock adapter years ago was to check the clutch disc on the input shaft, as well as the input shaft to the crank. Bottoming the input in the crank raises hell with the thrust bearing. Some disc will not be fully engaged with the input splines. Maybe the more modern units address that. But easy enough to mock up and be sure.
While it is old school, you can not beat a T-85 Overdrive for all around driving.. Their is a lot of misconception's of them. I have 275,000 miles of driving them and set up correctly they are steller.. While the Borg- Warner book and the new re-write book says you can, under certain circumstance's, you can shift without using the clutch and also take the dash control in and out of overdrive or drop it into 1st while still moving, never ever ever do any of that as it can be detrimental to the transmission. and sooner or later you will mess up. Weather you use the factory set up or disconnect the governor wire and bring that wire to a toggle switch mounted on your shifter, always use the clutch and you will never go wrong.. Always use a Hurst Synchro-Lock shifter. Even a used one almost never gets sloppy or bad and they are more precise than even the 4-speed Hurst Competition Plus. You will never need to use 3rd gear around town or on windy back roads, just 2nd gear low range and 2nd gear OD range. Be careful on selecting your rear end gearing. Depending on your weight and HP you will want to use something between 350 to 390. With a 4,000 lb car and 375 hp I used a 389 rear which translate to 273 in overdrive. I could easily do 90 in 2nd gear overdrive and I tacked 2400 at 100 MPH in overdrive 3rd gear and I only used but 1/4 of the gas pedal. I am old now, give me a call and I can tell you more or email me at [email protected]. 518-318-2296 . s
When I put the "El Caballo" together, I was going to use a LaSalle with an R-22 overdrive adapted to the case, but Ak told me to simply use a T-85. As it turned out I already had one, so in it went. A simple adaptor to the Olds 371 and we were off to the races. I used a rod linkage for the "cable" which I located in the original position, and has a toggle on the dash for the solenoid control. Worked wonderfully. When track racing I never used the OD, only on the long distance stuff, like the Carrera Panamericana, and local rally's... I punished that poor T-85, as the racer weighed in at well over 4K pounds and even though I had 11" Lincoln brakes, they would not last more than a few laps at Laguna Seca. So I constantly used the tranny for brakes. Never had a problem.....
Been driving T85 overdrives for sixty years; one of the best ever. Only caveat when buying a T85, they've been used in Studebakers, Packards, IH, Ford and others. The thing to watch for is the input shaft. IDK the dimensions for the Y-block input shaft, but have those in hand, written down and a good measuring implement. jack vines
I thought one time I saw a t85 with od at the yard; input was 1-3/8 - 10 spline. Went back the next day but it was gone. With the big input was it a t85 or something else?
I 'seriously doubt' even a really hopped-up Y-block would stress a T-5 tranny. Can you tear a T-5 up behind a Y-block??? Sure...! (Side-stepping the clutch with super sticky slicks on the back will turn one inside-out !!) Driving the crap outta of a street rod with a Y-block......a T-5 will take plenty and not leave ya at the curb. 6sally6
seb fontana : That T85/od with the 1-3/8" x 10 spline was originally out of a truck, & you would(usually) only to need to change the clutch disc to match the input shaft to use in a passenger car...
After a little research, I obtained 3 T89 transmissions from @guthriesmith on this forum. According to what I found out, these are identical to T85's except that "The major difference between the two transmissions is the mainshaft; the T-85 uses a helically cut first and reverse mainshaft, whereas the T-89 has a straight-cut mainshaft" (from an article in Hemmings - https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/warner-t-85-t-89-three-speed-transmissions). All three have R11 overdrives, and I was told that they were from early sixties Ford trucks. I wanted to use them to replace the '50 Ford transmission behind a Rocket Olds or early Hemi in my Tub. I already had the adapters for both engines for '49-'64 Ford transmissions, but when I did some preliminary measuring, I found it was a little more complicated than I first thought. Although the bolt pattern between the transmission and bellhousing/adapter was the same, the registry hole for the front bearing retainer on the transmission was larger than the one in the adapter. Also, the pilot bearing surface on the front of the input shaft was also larger in diameter. This is in addition to the input shaft clutch measurement difference. Although these differences can be addressed, I decided to initially use the '50 Ford transmission and worry about the T89 fitment later down the road. Most everything else I have read on this thread is essentially correct. These are strong transmissions, as is the R-11 overdrive unit, having been used behind FE's in Ford pickups. I just thought I'd point out some detail problems that will be encountered when using these with earlier Ford products, such as "Y"-blocks. EDIT : I forgot to mention that the input shaft lengths are the same on both early and late transmissions.
My bad : I forgot about needing the truck TO bearing with the 1-3/8" input shaft (It's only been nearly 50yrs, & I should remember these important things... LOL!!) Also possibly needing a '65/& back truck bellhousing for the proper input shaft housing diameter(or possibly turning down in a lathe the OD of the input housing flange to match the hole ID of the bellhousing ?)
While it’s all good info for anyone running a search Deyomatic made his choice last March. He’s had questions since then on it. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/clutch-which-one-do-i-choose.1288394/
When I first converted my coupe to M/T I was set on and did find the pretty rare NP440 from early '80's GM pickups. The gear ratios were only OK but does have the O/D high gear. A requirement for me. The big problem with that trans is that it is NOT a performance transmission at least box stock. Like Saginaw 4 speeds, the NP440 would not shift into the next gear during spirited / higher RPM shifting. After driving it some I decided it had to go and initially was set on a T-5. WC T/5 is a good choice and Ford bell housing bolt pattern units can be found. GM bellhousing WC units are not so readily available. No one is selling new GM T/5's. Either Ford or GM, in a Model A you will want the GM S10 tail housing that mounts the shifter forward most. After many hours on the web and many phone call false starts I gave up on the GM WC T/5 with s10 tail. The option I ended up with is a new Tremec TKX with the forward shifter location option. Not a cheap option by any means and surely not in the traditional sense. But it does shift under all driving conditions, there are options for gear ratios, it is a good fit in the frame rails and has a O/D high gear. Most importantly, I am very happy with it in my coupe. Drive it hard, drive it easy, it just works every time and it adds to the fun value of driving the car, hands down.
FWIW, the front bearing retainer/throwout bearing sleeve is interchangeable with all the versions of the T85/T89/T10. There are early Ford, late Ford, GM and Studebaker models. Just write down the diameter of the bellhousing ID and keep measuring until you find the transmission OD you need; it will bolt on. There are also three diameters of throwout bearing ID, but mixing and matching those to the sleeve is not rocket science. Same with clutch disc spline diameter and count. These are the most dirt-common discs used in most all '50s-'60s V8s. Finding the disc diameter and spline diameter/count to match the disc to the flywheel/clutch cover and transmission spline is just regular Hamburger day's work. Let the guys here know exactly which trannies, bellhousing, et al, you have and someone will have done that mashup. jack vines
The T85 transmissions usage can be complicated as Borg Warner and Ford constantly messed with the gears. I know of at least 5 different impute shafts & six different cluster gears. In most of the other parts their are 1 to 4 different applications.. so be carefully ordering parts, though all the parts from all of them will fit into any Ford T85 case. For those that have a early 60's 292 truck, the 1949 - 1951 Lincoln T85 transmission will bolt right in. It has a 19 tooth impute shaft and would I be correct saying that the 60's trucks had a 18 - impute shaft? The extremely rare K unit used in police cars and the T85AA have a 17 tooth impute shaft. Also shot bed pickup trucks from 1957 to 1964, with a big block in it used the car transmission. impute shaft length. I used one of these in my rod and I did not noticeable notice the difference in performance. with my 425 engine with 375 hp naillhead in a 4,000 lb car with a 389 rear. I have the Borg- Warner transmission parts book (also lists the OEM part numbers)from all makes 1940 to 1966.. Sadly it does not list all the T85 parts from all years from 1949 to 1972., but most of them. Give me a call if you need to verify part numbers.518-318-2286 or [email protected]. Thank you and happy hunting. Sal
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