Technical Does zinc additive turn to sludge?

My 57 has a new engine in it. It was assembled in 2015, and sat until i started it and ran it last year. I drove it to one show in 2020, and around here locally with no real issues, i changed the oil after about 50 miles. It had zinc additive in it with havoline 10w30. Today i drove it about 15-20 miles and when i got off the interstate i noticed a lifter clatter, looked at the oil pressure gauge and it was on 0. I put the car in neutral and revved it, the pressure came up and the lifters straightened up. Got it back to the shop, took the filter off and cut it open and found sludge, it feels like grease. So i changed the oil and filter, and started the car, straight to 50lbs of oil pressure and the engine is quiet as a mouse. I let it idle for 20 minutes and it's staying at 25lbs hot. I plan to run it this evening and in the morning, then change it again. My question is, what is the crud in the filter?

 

Did you rebuild the engine in 2015? If not, I'd guess that the engine was not cleaned well prior to assembly.

 

Looks like Moly,,,,,,I know they recommend to change the oil after a run in with moly additives.
What does it feel and smell like ?
Looks like paste .

Tommy

 

Did it sit for 5 years after the break in before you drained and changed the oil?

edit
Just re read it, engine was assembled and sat for 5 years, then fired.

 

No i didn't rebuild it, a shop in Indiana built it, and no it never had oil in it, just assembly lube. I put the oil and a tube of zinc additive in it and fired it up to break in the cam, drove it about 50 miles and changed it, then found this today.

 

It feels like paste. I didn't smell of it.

 

What was used for assembly lube?

 

No clue, Shaw's in Indiana did it. It was assembled and came with the car.

 

No. Zinc additives are blended in with the oil when it is manufactured, or added in liquid form with the oil change and are colorless and odorless. Rislone and STP are both zinc-rich additives that can be added to regular oil or, better yet, to engine oils already zinc enriched such as Shell Rotella T-4. What you found in your filter looks like old residue (sludge) such as would be found in a pre-detergent engine that had sat for a while and then got re-circulated with a change to a modern detergent oil. If I found what you found in my oil filter I'd say the engine was never hot-tanked when it was rebuilt...if it was rebuilt at all. Just sayin'.

 

Did the zinc additives look like moly ?
Maybe the shop used a ton of moly assembly lube .
I have seen sone guys smother the parts in moly lube,,,,,,just trying to make it have a smooth break in.
And it does work very well,,,,it just has to be flushed out later to protect the system.
I had an old mechanic race engine builder tell the that some time ago.
He was a pretty smart cookie,,,so I always listened to his advice.

Jerry was a great guy,,,,started working when he was young with the railroad in Nashville.
He could literally build or fabricate anything,,,,,and was one of the smartest engine guys I ever knew.
I miss him .

Tommy

 

May be corrosion that has broken down after your engine got up to operating temp after a good long drive. A big plus with high zinc content is corrosion protection. The first time I set the solid lifters in my small block Ford, I noticed some corrosion on a rocker or two. That was a tell the engine oil was a modern standard blend and the engine indeed had been sitting a lot for a few years. I'm using Lucas Hot Rod 10-W40 now to clean and protect the engine from further corrosion. It has 2000 ppm zinc like the old blends. Great for engines that don't see daily service and collect condensation from sitting a bit.

Joe

 

When you first fired it, how did you break in the cam?

 

That appears to be assembly lube. After the initial run + 50 miles, stated you changed the oil, how about the filter?

 

I still add zinc when I change oil, even 10,000 miles after the rebuild.

 

Also,,,,,I have heard some recommend to pack the oil pump with grease before start up .
There could have been an excessive amount of lube or grease in the assembly ?

I don’t hardly think the filter was saturated with grime from the block not being cleaned .
Because if that much funk was in the filter after 50 miles,,,,I think the bloc’ would have been so filthy that a bearing would have failed as well .

 

My guess would be that you didn't get it hot enough on the initial run-in to liquify the assembly lubes and they got trapped latter when you were at a good running temp.

 

If the engine came installed in the car I'd say someone tossed on any old filter they had laying around, if you installed the engine, did the filter come with the engine or did you put it on? If you put it on, are you positive it was new? I have heard of people buying stuff then returning the 'new' product for a full refund except they return a used item instead ... any chance that happened?

After running a new (rebuilt) engine to break in the cam, I always change both the oil AND filter. Drive it for a relatively short amount of time then change them both again.

The last engine I assembled, I broke it in on a run stand I had made then I dropped the pan and couldn't believe the crud in the pan. I say 'assembled' as there was no machine work done, but every bearing (including cam) was changed, the plugs were all removed and I 'rodded out' the galleys with the correct wire brushes, then degreased, pressure washed, soaped, pressure washed then blew it out with air to dry it. After being completely down to the absolute bare block, and cleaning the heck out of it to best of my ability, there was still a lot of crud in that engine that ended up in the pan after the first 20 minutes. Although yours looks like a used filter, maybe it just needed to be changed after the initial run. Only other thought is, did the engine shop go overboard with greases, lubes etc due to their knowledge that the engine (IF they knew this) was going to sit for several years?

 

2200rpm for around 20 minutes

 

Good question Lloyd.

First off, I agree with those who said it looks like assembly lube, I think that is most likely.

But back to your question if the zinc additive can turn to sludge. I don't think anyone here can really answer that question, because we don't have enough info, but I would say it is possible. Additives blended into the oil when manufactured should be fully solubilized into the base oil and not separate, but it can happen if the product sits for extended periods of time. That's why products have a shelf life. But an aftermarket additive that you add into the engine, who knows whats going to happen with that, it's a crap shoot IMO. Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of aftermarket lube additives (ALA's as they are known in the industry). I think they are mostly bogus snake oil products at best, and can be harmful at worst. And yes, zinc additives can and do become unsolubilized and fall out of dispersion on occaission. We typically see this when it happens in hydraulic systems that have become contaminated with water, even condensation, with oils that use detergents that cause emulsions when the oil is exposed to water, and if the oil is not brought high enough up in temperature to volatize all of the water contamination out of the oil. I've seen it many times when a hydraulic tank is drained and there is a whiteish goopy film on the bottom of the tank. That is the zinc anti-wear additive that has fallen out of dispersion because of exposure to water, and it is not a hydrolytically stable compound. (i.e. someone used engine oil as a hydraulic oil)

I don't think that's what's happened here, I think it's likely just the assembly lube has been washed out of the engine and collected in the filter. If you changed the oil, I'd pull the filter in another 50 - 100 miles or so and check it again.

 

There was a filter on it that was painted with the block. I put a new wix filter on it. Who knows, i didn't build it, my fault for not taking it apart and checking it. Seems to be good now, but I'll change it again tmrw.

 

I can't speak directly to Rislone, I'm not familiar with it, but re STP, no it IS NOT "zinc-rich". It actually has very little zinc in it, and if it does anything at all it dilutes the ppm of zinc to the extent of the amount of STP added.

If I get a chance I'll try to look up Rislone and see what's in it.

 

Here's the reason behind my question, my buddy Tim built a 406, put it together using motor(engine) oil and cam lube. Once together he filled it with oil and the zinc additive, shortly after break in he lost oil pressure. He pulled the pan, everything was good, checked bearings and all. Pulled the filter and cut it open, full of sludge. He's the one i called this morning when this happened to me, he told me to cut open the filter and check it. We discussed what it could be, cam lube? Zinc additive? I asked Johnny Gee and he told me to start this thread to get a wider knowledge base. Wish i knew the answer. Scared the fuck out of me seeing that this car is heading to Bowling Green Thursday morning. Hope for the best.

 

Please continue on down the hall to the third door on the left. Ask for Mary ... she'll sort you out.

 

Sounds to me like this is nothing more than an abundance of assembly lube (in both cases, yours and your buds 406) and the filter not being changed with the oil after the cam break-in. The reason I haven't experienced it is because I change both oil and filter. I guess I should add, I have never cut open a filter after cam break-in, I just toss them so it's possible they look as bad as yours.

 

Yeah, anytime we see zero oil pressure it is a puckering moment!

If you don't have the chance to put some miles on it I'd at least get it up to temp then drop the filter and cut it open and inspect it, see if you got anymore crud in there.

I have some customers that cut the filters open and inspect the pleats on every engine oil change. It has saved them from catastrophic failure by catching a developing problem before it got to that point. They also send a sample of oil in for analysis, but that takes time; cutting the filter open can be done right then and there. The guys that service your fire trucks may do it as well.

 

If the engine had a new cam shaft it would have had cam shaft break in lube on the cam lobes and probably the lifter faces. Lifter break in grease or lube is a lot like valve lapping compound. if used excessively and perhaps setting for several years prior to run in it could become very sludgy. Just a thought.

My experience with Havoline at least in the distant past is that it is or was a high paraffin oil and can leave the inside of an engine very nasty. This would not happen overnight though it took years of use and abuse.

 

I had a tapping lifter here and there back in the late 70’s, my Dad had me put in a bottle of Rislone, within a few minutes the click would stop. I recall it as a thin pour. We assumed it cleaned the lifter, lubed them better, who knows, but it worked.
I’m real curious on what you find out about it.

 

Plain Rislone was called petroleum distillate. it was more of a cleaner than anything else. Rislone made or marketed many products. Caseite Motor Honey for example was/is a Rislone product but it is not Rislone. They also marketed a top oil that you put in your fuel.

Note: @Blues4U can probably give a proper explanation for the term petroleum distillate.

 

LLoyd, did you add zinc or was it already in the oil?

I use Castrol motor oil and it already has zinc (ZDDP) added, I have seen and evidence of sludge. HRP

 

Lol who in their right mind would change the oil and not the filter?