Projects '23 Model T Gow Job - AKA: Sand Creek Special

Looks good! The helical gears and location of the ports dictate the direction of rotation. You should be able to flip the cover and be fine.

 

So no issues running the gears reverse you think? I'm not trying to build any serious pressure, I'm just flooding the mains and rods with oil....not a true pressure system.

I "think" the cover is drilled to go both ways. it appears to be machined to accept the relief valve on either side. But if not, yes, a simple flip over should be all that's required.

 

The only difference is the thrust direction, but the pressure vs force against the case cover won't be a big deal in my opinion

 

You are planning on flipping the pump gears not running the pump backwards correct? Just to be clear.

 

@dumprat Maybe I'm not thinking clearly on this. What do you mean by flipping the pump gears? They only go in one way.

Yes, I figured just run the pump backwards, after inspecting the front cover to see if I could A) just swap the regulator and plug on the front cover, or B) flip the front cover to make the internal ports be on the correct side. All the internal ports are on the front cover.
EDIT: Pump cover has universal internal porting, so I just had to switch the relief valve and block off plug around.

The center housing has no ports, other than the NPT ports where the in and out lines hook up. There is nothing but the bushings for the gear shafts on the rear cover.

So other than the gears running backwards, the thrust going towards the other end of the case, and plumbing the suction side to the opposite side. Is there really any harm in running it backwards? I don't see a reason, but I'm always learning, so let me know if I'm missing something.

 

Subscribed!

 

Cleaned the pump up this morning. It was in pretty nice shape.This thing looks way more period correct than what I was trying to do before.




Reassembled, everything spins fine now:




The I went to town removing the excess bulk of the pedestal mount and rear housing. I still need to get someone to mill the cut off area flat and parallel with the face of the cover. But I'm fairly close here. Next I'll be checking out the mounting to be done to the front timing cover.

 

@guitarguy
I am probably not being clear. Yes you can run the gears backwards if you make the inlet the outlet and switch the cover. (You just can't run it backwards without changing the inlet/outlet and relief.)
Running backwards will yield almost no oil flow. (I deal with millwrights who try this all the time)

 

@dumprat OK, we are both on the same page then. Yes, I am switching the relief valve and plug to the opposite sides and plumbing the inlet and outlets backwards from factory. Thank You very much for keeping me on the right track, very much appreciated. I was on the right track in my mind, but as is with the internet and typing vs. actual conversation, the translation gets skewed or off, and when you posted I started second guessing myself. But we're all good and I am back on track. Thank You for your help.

 

No worries at all!

Ya got me thinking I need to build a banger!

 

@dumprat If you do, unless your a die hard T guy, I really recommend an A or B engine, and not all of this goofy nonsense I am doing to the T, LOL.

 

I think a B enigne would be it. Maybe in a 26-27 roadster with a jeep T5. Build it cheap and run the shit out of it.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. Still a ton more to do though.

 

Anymore work on the wood work? I just picked this up. I might need to pick your brain on a few bits.

Don't worry I am not building a speedster, I want a tin over wood C cab.

 

^^^^Yesss!^^^^
Love'n the progress by the way!

 

Nice score. , it is a low cowl.
No progress on the wood, as everything I was doing was for the high cowl later body. I basically have to start all over with the low cowl roadster body, nothing is the same as the previous body. Here is a pic below that will help with some reference.

Thank You very much, I know progress has slowed some. Some progress is still being made however, mostly in the chassis / drivetrain area.

 

That pic does show any wood along the top edge of the firewall. Mine has a structure there as well.

 

@dumprat Are you talking in the area of #1 or # 2?

 

OK, I'm on vacation, so that means some progress. Working on getting the rear mounts made for the Model A flywheel housing.

Earlier, I cut and clearanced the back of a block I was using. I decided this actually would be easier (hopefully) to notch the A flywheel housing instead.




This fits better, I think this will work best.





In the car it goes, leveled and measured the frame, and then the engine on a sort section of T pan. Looking good (it took me so long to level the engine and I actually had to start all over and level the engine again.)




Everything looking good, even the starter area should be fine. I need to get a starter too...anyone have one cheap?

 

Both #1&2 actually.

 

@dumprat
There is no wood along #1. The cowl has a reinforcement section on the flange part. The support for it and the sides of the body in the front comes from the firewall (which would be wood unless you find a early 23 low steel firewall like I did) and the front wood pillar.

For section #2, there is a metal bracket piece with a wood piece on the inside of it that follows the shape that connects the front pillar and door pillar. Think of all of this as an early unibody. There are lots of things going on here with the wood structure and bracketry.

Here is a pic of the inside of the drivers side of my body:

 

Just regarding your pump, what do the thrust faces look like on the front and rear covers?
Are they plain and flat or have cutaways? If so,they can be rotation dependant.
Also your gear housing,the peice your gear set sit in is normally rotation dependant. If the cutaways in the centre where your ports are have a larger opening than the other the larger is for your suction(inlet) side.
Dumprat is on the money, the rear cover has to be flipped to put the relief side on your outlet
This unit looks like a lube pump anyway so should be perfect for your job.

 

So I figured I was this far bolting parts on, so why not the clutch housing.




Well, I kind of already knew this because of my bud @David Mazza and his A engine swap to a T frame, but yeah, the pedals are going to need some re-alignment.




Well, because I haven't seen this in a bit, lets set the head on....yup, still looks good.....




But..... with the low style firewall, little more of a clearance issue. I think I am going to have to revisit the little box recess I had previously made for the high firewall. Dang it.






Yup, looking just as I pictured. How about you?

 

Yes, Dumprat and I had a off thread conversation. These pumps are industrial and very universal. There are no ports in the covers or housings to direct flow. On the front cover, you can swap the plug and relief valve around to suit which way the flow is going. Because I cut the back of the pump apart, I was then actually able to swap the driven gear with the idler gear and put the pump in a better mounting spot as well as maintain it's original flow path as designed. My concern now is the RPM vs. flow output it will be turning and how much flow will be directed through the relief valve. I may have to remove the front cover plug and add a drain back line to the pan to help alleviate some of the relief flow. That can be all worked out later though, just mounting is the hard part.

 

You are correct. There was no wood across the top. So does this mean it's a low cowl? I think I am going to have some work ahead of me with wood work. Wonder how much curve these panels have on the sides?

 

@dumprat Yes, per my post above, I did mention it was a low cowl that you have. I can tell by the shape of the cowl, and the windshield post brackets.

Looks like someone chopped the front pillars off, but you still have the upper brackets and wood pieces. Yes, rewooding one of these is a ton of work. And if you have incomplete wood, it is very hard to "imagine" what was there. There was a gentleman that had wood blueprint plans, but he recently passes last year and they are no longer available now. I had a set fro the high cowl touring body, but not all of it lined up with the remnants I had. So it was a combination of using the plans, what I had left, and what I thought to make it work...it was a nightmare. The wood on the roadster is much more complete, but very rotted and fragile in spots, but good to copy from and see how it did go together.

 

@guitarguy does your can have a wood or metal floor? Could you use a chunk of plywood to get the floor shape right then build the wood off of that?

 

@dumprat Model T's had wood floors---but that was not in anyway a structural part of the body, just the last piece to cover it all up. They all were just set in place on a groove cut in the sills and floor board risers, no fasteners. The body wood skeleton was the strength. There were no cross members in the body, save for the seat frame that was sheet metal and the rear seat panel as well as the dash.

Delivery type vehicles did differ some, You can attach a sheet of plywood to the frame, that is how alot of speedsters get built. You say a C-cab style, but in the T world, that's a pretty broad term. They did the '14 deliveries which never used a cowl section, or later TT trucks, but they essentially used the cowl and doors like a passenger car. My advise would be to do alot of research first. There were numerous "C-cab" style home built things, but you will have to determine what is best for you.

This is a pic I saved of an early 20's roadster wood skeleton built up -- the floor just sets in, the black sheet metal piece is the seat riser. There would be two more sections of floor that set on the grooves of the set floor riser sheet metal:

 

Cool Project.Have you a ever tried Chaffin's Garage Inc They have lots of speed goodies!


2020


MODEL T FORD PARTS

1931 S. Main St. Corona, Ca. 92882

951-735-4791 Fax 951-371-2367

E-MAIL: Chaffinsgarage@pacbell.

 

Yes, I know about Chaffins. They make / supply alot of parts to the stock Model T world.
Mark, the son, now owns the business and was the one who stepped up to the plate to make a reproduction RAJO head. Very nice, but as with such endeavors, it's a labor of love with a price tag to recoup the high costs to produce such an item. The reality is, it's still reasonably priced for what it is.