I think when it comes to customs the proverbial line in the sand is when you start messing with head/tail light changes, chopping and sectioning. That tends to be where I see people go from being okay to making the snide comments I hear every time we unload the 56 at a show. Case in point was at the Boise roadster show we were next to a 57 Nomad custom. It was a modern build and not 1 panel was left untouched but it was still easy to tell it was a 57 Chevy. As far as the masses a hot rod has a rough shape that people associate with and so they can make that connection as they have an idea of what a hot rod typically looks like, where a custom is a reflection of the ideas of the builder and its unique to everything else. Plus something I have always though since I was 13, you can put a hot rod motor in a kustom and go fast, but you cant really put kustom on a hot rod. There are exceptions like the Ala Kart and Little Deuce Coupe (Silver Sapphire)
I can appreciate the work it takes to build a custom, I respectfully disagree with you that building a traditional hot rod/vintage racecar is just a matter of bolting on parts. To truly have a high perforce engine you know and understand what combination of parts to use. I have seen a number of people spend thousands of dollars on machine work, rotating assembly, cam, intake and carburetor(s), and ended up with a totally unstreetable engine, or a total slug because they bought a cam and intake that don't work together, or they over carbureted the engine, chose the wrong gearing in the rear ect... When it comes to vintage racing (oval or drag) it is not, non has ever been it just a matter of just stuffing the biggest engine in the lightest car. You need to build within the rules you have to deal with cubic inch limits, minimum wheelbases minimum wights. Some classes you can run bigger cubic inches in a heavier car bigger engine more power, but harder on tires. With minimum wight you need to build a car safe but as light as possible the goal is to be a little light so you can add wight where you want it for handling. Bar placement in the cage have a tremendous effect on handling, simply moving a bar 1/4" will make a car very stiff or free. I have seen cars with no damage "jump" when a bar is cut loose because it was binding the chassis.
Ah, customs... the 'difficult child' of the American car hobby. I'm going to let my opinion show... I've always had a real love of customs. Coming from an art school background, a well-executed custom can be a thing of beauty. The car that cemented that love was the 'Beatnic Bandit', still one of my all-time favorites; no matter that it was a totally impractical 'show rod', here was a car that would never be mistaken for any other. Other favs are the Matador, Jade Idol, even the Mark Mist along with some others. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder... I was a R&C subscriber from the early 60's until it's demise. My favorite feature was 'Sketchpad' with custom treatment of various cars by Thom Taylor, Tom Daniels, and occasionally Don Emmons and Joe Henning. But even a great design can look bad if poorly executed. And very, very few artists can turn out masterpiece after masterpiece. For Hot Rodders it's easy; the name of the game is to improve performance (keep in mind that the original impetus for chopping tops was to reduce wind resistance). But if building a custom, now you're entering the art realm where it's impossible to meaningfully quantify the results. That's where the custom judging system went wrong; non-artists tried to come up with a judging system they could execute, ignoring the aesthetic aspect almost completely not only because it's so subjective but they also lacked the training to analyze the design. To me, the '59-65 era was both the pinnacle and nadir of customs. The judging system resulted in some seriously ugly cars, yet some builders managed to have clear visions and executed them. The pre-1950 era customs by and large are forgettable. They were trying to emulate the coachbuilt cars with their inexpensive cars and while there's some well done examples in terms of execution, they very rarely had the élan of the originals or the performance. The early '50s was the era of Hirohata Merc. It got publicity, and fired imaginations across the country. It engendered countless variations on that theme (which still exists to this day) with the vast majority being anonymous to all but students of the genre, much like the pre-'50s era cars. It was also notable for helping make George Barris's reputation, although I've always felt that Sam was the dominate influence on that car given George's later excesses. The mid-late '50s era is where it started to go bad. Detroit started selling cars that were not only sleeker than what the customizers were building but flashier as well, and in answer they started throwing stuff against the wall to see what would stick. Some singularly ugly cars came out of this era, with fins and quad lights on everything with little regard to if it 'worked'. But there was one iconic custom from this era that probably did almost as much to change customs as the Hirohata Merc; the Ala Kart. This one was all George, and forever cemented his status. A very well integrated design and very much 'outside the box', so much so that Roth used it for inspiration of the Beatnik Bandit. This is the car that started the 'show rod' category. Current state of affairs? Unfortunately, pretty stagnant. There seems to be four schools of thought these days. The 'chop the top and do mild mods to the rest' crowd most notably like John D’Agostino and Richard Zocchi is one, but to me this barely nudges them out of the 'mild custom' category. Their few forays into full-on radical have been less than successful IMO. The second school is basically cloning something that exists, mixing the usual parts on the usual cars. The Hirohota Merc seems to have established this pattern. Some are very well executed, but basically seem to be stuck firmly in the pre-'58 era. I'm not trying to take anything away from this group, but damn, I'd sure like to see a bit more originality once in a while. I don't care if I never see another DeSoto grill or Packard taillight. Third is the preservationists. Those lucky individuals with 'original' customs from 'back in the day' particularly if it's one of the better-looking examples (yeah, I'm talking to you Moriarity! LOL!). Unfortunately it's a small club. Why these cars don't inspire more is beyond me... Last, what I call the 'cartoon' cars. These are generally a bit helter-skelter looking, but usually feature huge grills, bumpers and/or dagmars along with being bagged. Eye-catching and outrageous for sure, but it's more about the shock value rather than the design. Remember, this is all opinion, so don't take offense. And there's some bleed-through between categories, but those are more exceptions that prove the rule. I've been jonesing for a custom for quite a while (my avatar is a hot rod to me). I bought my '56 DeSoto hardtop a few years ago with that in mind, but the longer I looked at the car the more I realized that my metalworking skill level isn't up to the vision I have in my head and my budget won't allow farming it out. So it's going back up for sale before long. I'm currently looking at another car, one that rarely gets past the 'mild custom' category but I have a firm vision and it's one I think I can carry off. And not withstanding the above comments, the degree of difficulty on a custom is much higher for anything other than a very mild version. Sure, if you're building a car to go race competitively or wring every last bit of performance out of it, you need to know what you're doing. But not many are doing that; those types of cars tend to be more than a bit extreme for street use. I went down that road once, never again.
I often use the analogy that building a hot rod is like men's clothing; the same basic elements are there for everyone; shirt, pants, suit jacket, tie, shoes, etc., but some people look a total mess and others look like they're right off the pages of GQ magazine. It all comes down to details, proportions, quality of finish, attention to details Just to be clear, I didn't say building a hot rod was always as simple as bolting on high performance parts, just that it could be as simple as that. There are plenty of hot rods that have great metal work in their bodies, tremendous custom work both aesthetically and mechanically, amazing chassis work, etc., not to mention that building a small vehicle poses real engineering issues in packaging everything you want into a small space. On the other hand, there are a lot of rods that are basically defendered Model As with a mild engines installed and juice brakes. I've said it before though, the hot rods with T5 transmissions, EFI hidden in carburetors, bent tubular crossmembers, even complete reproduction bodies (whether they be glass or steel), are about as traditional as a Kandy painted custom on bags. Yet one is celebrated here, and the other is cancelled. Perhaps that's why there is a bit of a chip on the shoulder of the custom enthusiast.
Tasteful mods that accentuate the vehicle, its a fine line. Once guys started modding specifically for points, theres were some strange results, about the time quad lights came in, not many improved with that mod. I dont get too excited about it, they have a finished car, Im happy for them. I lean more on the hot rod side, if I "customize" something it would be because I cant find the right part or too cheap to buy it. Shave trim, different bumper
That applies to a lot of us. We make big plans in our head and then life hands us higher priorities. Over the last few years, my car got a stroker motor from Ebay (If I call this Volvo motor a banger, will the traditional folks have a stroke?). All the mechanical and electrical work was done by me in my home workshop. I started to do some "customizing". At 75 years old, I had an inheritance and farmed the work out. A really talented one man shop got to build his first custom. We did have a couple of discussions about the level of work. He was capable of show quality work, but, I had to pass on lead ("Bondo Budget") and a show paint job (It's a long distance driver and I live on dirt roads). Russ
Detroit built thousands of the cars we like.Enough for who ever has the money to buy.I figure your car your rules.Kids build cars that jump up,and down! Not my thing ,but they have their own magazines.Most car guys have one thing in common they would rather be out in the garage on Saturday night than down town getting in to who knows what.
The narrow mindedness of you "hotrodders" SUCKS! If I see another cookie cutter Model A or '32 it'll be the 9999th too many. It's like the fiberglass '32 kits of the 80's and 90's all over again... but puffing your chest out because your car is steal and has a flathead just like the 30 other cars parked next to you. If your car wasn't a hotrod in the 40's or 50's IT's as fake as a glass 32. You deserve a star for reviving a part of our culture and not building a kit car but the fact that your car is just like your buddy's and just like his buddy's is boring me to tears. If you think your beanie caps set your car apart from his Deluxe caps you need to take your blinders off. I remember only a few years ago when this new generation of hotrod enthusiests were "doing there own thing". I don't mean that ratrod bullshit;;but people were building drag cars, show cars, hot rods, customs...all of which were cool in the day. There's nothing cooler than a traditional rod but too many of you have blinders on to what hotrods really looked like in the 40's 50's and pre muscle car 60'. It wasn't A coupes on 32 rails. Look at all of the lil' books hotrod movies and old photos. The hotrods were not all Ford roadsters with flatheads and blackwalls. You guys have become a bunch of F#@!ing sheep. Grow a pair of balls and build something that's not just like everyone elses. NO CLUB! LONE WOLF!
Well written post by Crazy Steve and pretty spot on. When asked to define pornography, someone once said "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it" It's kinda the same way with building a car......whether it be a Hot Rod or Custom, when it looks right........I know it when I see it.
I might be getting a mixed message here, but I never thought of my 47 Chev as a "custom", because my focus was always on the Buick engine and making it hook and drive better. Hopefully, picture below. So, is it a custom or a rod? There were a couple of guys that built, what I would call a radical custom, and those guys didn't care much what was under the hood. I have seen radical customs that I love, and mild customs that I hated. This is not accounting for the amount of work that went into the car, but how it looked to me. My friend, who was a supurb bodyman and taught me the important techniques in working metal, had a 53 Chev 2dr, with 56 Packard tail lights. The workmanship was phenomenal, but the look didn't appeal to me. He liked the look, and that was all that mattered. I am in the wrong place, if there isn't enough room in this hobby to appreciate the hard work that goes into a vehicle that I might not necessarily want for my own. (Lousy picture of a 47 to follow) Sorry but I took very few pictures in those days, and I had just smacked the front end attempting to avoid a dog. Before the accident, I had chrome reversed Buick rims on the four corners. Also not shown in the picture, was frenched headlights. Engine, 54 Buick, std trans, Buick rear end, American Pontiac front hubs. long, operational, lakes pipes (also dinged in the accident). The dog was fine. Bob
A 'custom rod' and sadly not seen much these days. These used to be considerably more common but disappeared somewhere along the line and I don't know why.
Is it an oxymoron when a narrow minded moron calls everyone else narrow minded ? Tell me, is that flame design on your avatar an original idea. Somehow I think I may have seen something like that somewhere before......... A wise man once said " The more things change, the more they stay the same".
I have this issue, and I like that Chev, flames and all. In the Ganahl era of RnC, he was pushing these cars and sharing memories of this style from his high school days;a rake, maybe Cali style, dechroming, Bellflower tips, scallops or flames, just add Ford, Chevy or Plymouth. In one of the Beach Party movies, there was a '56 Chev convertible, same yellow and flames, hit by a bus in one of the slapstick chases..in fact Buster Keaton sends a blue '56 Chevy ragtop off a cliff in same chase! Ouch!
There is a difference in that the Letter penned in a Mag did not have the same reach a Thread in a Modern Digital Forum has and the sentiment of that Letter has reared ugliness here in the Form of Replies or Comments in Threads for example and there is an impact on those who seek to have a conversation on a Revered or Non Revered Custom without the negativity...It is not only Customs however, many Hotrods are ripped for not meeting perceived Hotrod standards by in fact Hotrodders...who may in fact not even be Traditionalists...I don't for a minute want that confused with Off Topic...Off Topic is Off Topic...That goes for Hotrods and Customs... It actually detracts from enjoying historically interesting realities that are all part of the Big picture...Personally I believe the Ugliness in Attitudes have always been there. The Rivalry is just localized within this Site The Hamb as in it links the 2 Camps Together and its easy to just chime in lob an insult because there have always been Rivalries Within between and Across The Custom/Hotrod Movement...Long before the Birth of The Hamb Here's an Example of That Letter in a Digital Format below, that's my E&J's worth...and yes the Axe has never dulled...that is why turning the Key and driving around is sometimes the best part of it all...Rumble, Cruising and a winding picturesque winding road ATTITUDE and Ignorance Free... https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/barris-aztec-mecum-auctions.1178735/ Bring on the Customs and Hotrods Ladies and Gents...Both are welcome and Appreciated by Those that do and the Others...Well...they must always consider their thoughts as it will be noted...and considered. Our Membership here is a Privilege. @J.Ukrop, Thanks for sharing the 58 and the not so nice part of the Hobby but I think generally the only way of looking at it is there's always Attitudes and Opinions and Sphincters...The 58 presented...Buddy Nailed it...I'm sure he was proud of it...Rightfully so, I wouldn't change a thing...not even the Tires...
I would agree that the ISCA judging ruined alot of customs as owners kept making changes just for points. Its still that way today. I would also agree with the stagnation of kustoms in the current trend that limits it to simple chop and shave without much heavy work. I would have to say that kind of boils down to the cost for building a custom both in time and money. Even to clone or restore an old custom is a challenge. Finding certain parts and pieces off cars to use can make it really hard to be creative and not fold into the corvette grille and 56 packards. I will admit that before we had the chance to buy Taboo back we looked at cloning the car. The cost of tracking down Chrysler fenders and tail lights were just too much for us. A set of 60 Chrysler tail lights at that time were 400-500 for something that needed to be plated and more than likely the lenses were bad. Same situation on the Chrysler head lights, I searched for a couple of years and never could turn up fenders. Unless you can afford to pay up for part your going to spend years collecting to build a car and usually most will burn out midway.
Yes, finding the 'correct period' parts these days is a real issue. But that's only part of the problem IMO. If you're trying to clone a car and need specific parts that aren't being repoed, yeah, you'll have a problem. But if it's a new original build, why not cast a wider net? There's a lot more repo choices these days. Or build what you want? With the internet, whatever material you'll need is a mouse click away. Another problem is the perception that customs are bound by the same straightjacket that's been wrapped around rods on this forum. C'mon, these are customs, they've always been the rebels in the car camp. While there's a grain of truth that a traditional rod is reflected in it's parts, that's because it's primarily a mechanical creation. Too much modern stuff and it loses its 'flavor'. Customs are now built for a lot of reasons, but they don't seem to be all the same ones as 'back in the day'. The traditionalists (generally NOT custom owners) have seemingly buffaloed most into thinking that you have this limited palette to work with, when the original strength of customs was 'the sky's the limit'. That's like handing a kid a big box of crayons then telling him (or her) they can't use most of the colors. It's very similar to the judging problem; they're trying to quantify aesthetics and imagination which to gain herd approval only stifles them. If the design is right, what/where the parts are sourced shouldn't make a damn bit of difference. As long as the 'flavor' is right, it should be good. The key is to avoid 'modern' styling cues. I'd also like to question the hostility shown towards quad lights. I just don't understand this. From '57 on up, they were nearly standard on customs, even some rods got them. While the execution sometimes left something to be desired, that was true of lot of other things done in that era and still done today. I'll also note that square headlights weren't uncommon on show cars in the early '60s, the only reason they weren't seen on street cars was due to being illegal. That's no longer true, so technically those are a 'traditional' mod.
People have, and always will struggle with Kustoms. There have been several examples from back in the day, that in a way have created a sort of check list of mods which are perceived that customs must possess. Here in lies the problem, adhering to a tried and true design path already established, rather than discarding the norm, and taking the road less traveled..yes, the road that isn't on the map, but yet you know you can still get there, even if you have to go it alone, subjecting yourself for ridicule from the masses who have formed/locked in their opinions from past examples. A concept/vision that is truly original in this day and age is a task that is rare. So now you have in your minds eye, come up with that rare and truly original designed one off custom..do you have enough thick skin, to receive the inevitable negativity from the critics/experts? A custom car builder/designer must be true to themselves, willing to throw their personal visions for all to see, without concern about acceptance. In short, Kustoms aren't intended to appeal to everyone, a fact once accepted will open up those creative juices, to allow for original designs. I love Kustoms, but not all of them just because of the fact they are custom.
The proof's in the puddin'. Just look what the HAMB has morphed into. No ...flames aren't original just another aspect of the "rod and custom" culture. This "traditional" hot rod trend of jumping on the TROG band wagon will pass too. Traditional Hot Rods will stand the test of time. The life long hard core purest deserve mad respect for preserving this aspect of hot rodding. But I doubt they have a whole lot of respect for the "johnny come lately's" either. They'll jump to the next trend next year or more likely quit hotrodding for something more trendy. You're right though. If you want to be a sheep...be a sheep. Just don't be a pretentious sheep that talks down on other forms of hotrodding. Oh by the way I agree with you. A narrow minded person calling others narrow minded is an oxymoron. I'd be offended but I know that you cant be talking about me because I'm anything but narrow minded. Kinda like when a moron calls someone he doesn't know a moron while offering no evidence to support their own position nor any substance to rebut the other person's opinion on the subject. Hey I've got an idea go fuck yourself and have a nice day. ...just a general suggestion Please don't be offended.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. There’s a good reason why most custom (it’s spelled with a C not a K by the way) are not car designers. Many of them don’t have the eye or ability to know what looks good and they should probably have taken up a different hobby. Thats proven many times in the oddball stuff you see on the majority of custom cars and trucks.
Indeed, the world of customs versus hot rods will always have blurred lines. As for me, I am a fat fendered guy that loves the flowing art deco lines from the 40's My 47 Dodge business coupe is exactly what I always wanted, its still stock at this moment, ( aside from the wire wheels it has ) but it has the lines that appeal to my eyes with out chopping anything or adding anything or deleting anything. Now to illustrate a point, and I know I will get a lot of flak from this, but its just my opinion. Take a look at the iconic Ed Iskendarien roadster. When you first see it, there are a couple of things that you just cant take your eyes off of, the very cool "custom" made Iskendarien metal covers on the heads and the great looking headers and exhaust, even the cool radiator cap is unique. But other than that, its not all hacked up and its a bucket T. So Eds car is indeed a " hot rod " that has a few "custom" touches, pure and simple. Sometimes, " less is more ".
Well said! I am in the Hot Rod camp but that does not mean I don't like customs, they're just not my style. You could say custom guys have a chip on their shoulder, You could say I have a chip on my shoulder (I think all of us young guys do) when it comes to hot rods. I like the raw, aggressive, bare-bones style. Like The Spalding Brothers’ track roadster or Jimmy Shine's 34 pick up (Not a fan of bare metal). I want to see the to quote Indian Larry the "mechanicalness". I want to see welds in a chassis, well detailed plumbing (Fuel and brake lines) and wiring. In my opinion the best builders are the ones who can make what are often considered ugly necessities and make them works of art. The guys I work with don't understand why I lay out my welds, they need to be evenly spaced, and the same length or It drives me crazy!
It's an argument that is older than this forum.... obviously... but since this forum is focused on the traditional, it often strikes a nerve with people that don't quite have a grasp on what we think is traditional. Ultimately, the group that really gets it is pretty small. Most of the folks on the HAMB do, in fact, get it... others are learning their own definition. Neither camp is right or wrong, but ultimately this place is ran on gray matter that is hard to define... You just sort of feel it after researching and learning and developing and... But ultimately, it's not that complicated... and certainly not worth getting upset about. Either you like what we do or ya don't. Nothing wrong with either way of thinking. Or just build what you like and don't concern yourself with sheep. That's what Lions do, right? Be a lion. Or if you are more comfortable with it, be a sheep... What do I care?
How to make friends and influence people. What are you doing here, exactly? Kindly show us your cars that follow the theme you're preaching. You want everything to be traditional, but not look like copycats. Can't be done. There are finite numbers of car makes and models, aftermarket parts and ideas, if you trap everything in your traditional time warp. No matter how much you don't like it, there are only so many variations you can make before you copy something already done. And, sure, lots of original stuff was done pre-'60, but folks copied each others ideas all the time.
Yep, reread your opening statement and realized that I interpreted it incorrectly, not a hint of any narrow mindedness on your part....... Been called a non-conformist before, never a sheep. Let's see now, EVERYONE who builds or drives a hot rod is exactly the same......no originality or sense of proportion in any of us. How open-minded of you...... So you and none of your friends use any repop parts to construct any of your cars ? Even your paint is authentic lacquer, your hubcaps scrounged from forgotten vehicles, swap meets, and ancient junk yards. No modern guages and neer a radial tire or modern disc brake incorporated into them. None of the modern materials in the interior or even a post 65 motor under the hood. Again, how very open minded of you.... I think you will find that "flames" weren't unique to custom cars and that quite a few hot rods used them.....even way back in the fifties. Well, I'm 75 and been working on modified vehicles since I was about 14, so I'm not a "johnny come lately", but neither am I a died in the wool nostalgic purist. Personally I like customs (when they are well done) and prefer my hot rods to have big wide rear tires. I like both traditional engines and later model ones and don't care whether someones car is plastic or steel (only that its well done). I don't care if it has a straight axle or independent suspension (as long as its well done) or that it has a 5 speed transmission, or more modern guages, or anything else that when done..........looks good. So I tend to think most people would consider that an "open minded" opinion. You would be wrong yet again. One merely has only to read the things you previously wrote to determine whether or not you are a moron, and narrow minded to boot. They can form their own opinion, I have formed mine. If there is still any doubt, I think your following statement sums it up nicely. There but for the grace of God go I.......... Perhaps you should consider trying to respect what others do whether its your "cup of tea" or not and maybe expressing your thoughts in a constructive manner rather than attacking everyone as having come from the same basket. I respect what people who build (and design) customs do, and I appreciate the time and effort and money that went into getting it the way THEY want it. It doesn't mean I like every custom or think that it actually looks right rather than just being a collection of parts. I have that same feeling about hot rods......looks good or just an assembled bunch of parts. If I think something looks bad, I simply keep my opinion to myself rather than insult the owner. After all, my opinion really isn't important to anyone but me and different people like different things. The thing is, a really well done vehicle of any type will be noticed and usually complimented. At the Nats, I saw a drop dead gorgeous 54 Mercury, and I've always had a soft spot for them. As the owner drove past, I stopped him and told him that his car was absolutely the finest 54 Mercury I had ever seen. Then moved on. I appreciate all types of cars and the only condition I personally place on them is that the finished conglomeration of parts, labor and design actually compliment the original design or creates a design that looks great.
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