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Technical 1959 Ford bad brakes ,running out of ideas !

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Oliver Steward, Apr 1, 2020.

  1. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    I hope someone one here can help me out with any ideas to improve the terrible brakes on my '59 ford Station wagon . I have replaced the rear drums and shoes with good quality parts , fitted a new master cylinder , new hard lines and stainless steel flexy lines and a Willwood front disc brake conversion . If i put my foot on the brake pedal and start the engine you can feel the pedal being drawn down so i'm guessing the booster is working , its the original under dash Kelsey Hayes type and i have cleaned the filter in it too.
    I have built a fair selection of other cars from scratch and have never had this problem anything else.
    Does anyone else have a similar car to mine ? are the brakes just bad as stock ? I really have to give the pedal a very strong push .
     
  2. Jonathan W
    Joined: Apr 1, 2020
    Posts: 14

    Jonathan W

    I bet there is not enough brake pressure for the disc brakes. Take the time to check it with a 3000 psi hydraulic gauge. You should be able to get 1000 psi from that system. If not Time to change master cylinder to a different bore or a different brake booster.
     
    The.Rev.Earl and missysdad1 like this.
  3. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 9,176

    manyolcars

    Do you think its too hard to push the pedal? In that case bore another hole 3/4" down on the pedal and put the pushrod there. I had the exact problem on my 60 F100 and my 66 Chrysler
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
    porknbeaner likes this.
  4. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
    Member

    The stock 4 wheel drums without a booster, if in good condition and properly adjusted, will through you into the windshield when aggressively applied. I'm not familiar with the factory power brake set up.
    -Dave
     
    Pist-n-Broke, UNSHINED 2 and 62rebel like this.

  5. 62rebel
    Joined: Sep 1, 2008
    Posts: 3,232

    62rebel
    Member

    Ford hid the booster under the dash in that car; I had a setup that I tried to use on my 59 and it just never worked right, so I went back to non power brakes.
     
  6. Old cars even those with a brake booster did not peddle like a modern car, and big American cars did not peddle or brake like a European sports car. Big American cars were pigs. You had to drive them and sometimes it was work. if you did not grow up with them they will feel ugly to you. it is just the way that it is.

    Tell you a story if you don't mind. my first car was an '59 English Reilly. When I drove it home it was blowing by so bad that I had to stick my head out the window to see. I completely rebuilt it with the help of a mechanic friend (a grown up who owned his own machine shop). I remember telling him that it was a sports car (it was a sedan) because I had never driven a brit car yet.

    OK that's the back story for comparison. My next car was a '58 Buick Road Master it was a real boat. I loved it but even with power brakes that the Reilly did not have it did not stop well. me and my mechanic friend went through the entire brake system and we made damned sure that everything was right. I had to stroke the brakes once every time if I was not braking on a regular basis. I remember asking my friend and he said, "Young man some cars are like that, that Buick is never going to be a sports car and you know what you have to do, do it." Some old cars were, I am sorry but they were sometimes.

    I think that you probably didn't need the disc brakes, you may need to size your master to the discs. that is the most common problem with disc brake conversions.
     
  7. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,405

    alchemy
    Member

    You say "fitted a new master". Do you mean a new '59 master, or a new dual cylinder made-for-discs master?
     
    town sedan likes this.
  8. So if you think everything brake related should be fine then tell us about your Motor. If it's all weezed out or has some kind of big cam your issue may be Vacc related and nothing at all to do with actual brake parts.
     
    MO54Frank likes this.
  9. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,814

    BJR
    Member

    Were the rear shoes fitted to the drums? If they don't fit correctly, (radius not the same or close) they will not have enough shoe contact to work effectively. Also as said, if you changed the master cylinder, you may need to get one with a smaller bore.
     
  10. I have a '59 Ford, after market GM disc brakes, Ford style dual master and NO power booster. The car stops great. Best guess, your booster is not compatible with the conversion kit.
    0927141811.jpg
     
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  11. 62rebel
    Joined: Sep 1, 2008
    Posts: 3,232

    62rebel
    Member

    Yep, probably the best thing to do is ditch the booster and match the master to the calipers you have.
     
    town sedan likes this.
  12. Doublepumper
    Joined: Jun 26, 2016
    Posts: 1,534

    Doublepumper
    Member
    from WA-OR, USA

    Providing the master cylinder has the proper bore size for the new brake system, might check to verify the link between the booster and master cylinder has been adjusted properly. A master cylinder with too large of a bore will cause a problem like you're describing, as well as improper pedal ratio for the system.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    town sedan likes this.
  13. 67drake
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 469

    67drake
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Muscoda WI

    Also check that your primary and secondary shoes are not reversed. Pedal height can seem OK, but just don’t stop well.
    I had a friend that had just bought a ‘65 Ford truck with new drum brakes on all 4 corners. He said pedal seemed ok, but just didn’t stop like it should. I pulled all 4 wheels to find 3 of the 4 sets of shoes on backwards! Swapped them around and adjusted them up. It was like a totally different truck!
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  14. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    Thank you to all the people that have taken the time to help out and offer advise , its always good to hear others opinions .
    I'll have to rig up a pressure gauge to find out what the pressure is with and without the booster , i had no idea that the line pressure would be that much I had in mind that it was in the region of 700 lbs/sq inch. The master cylinder is the original type and size, 1 1/8 bore , correct for the cars with a booster . The cars without had a 1" cylinder , maybe a 1" would suit the disc brakes better . That would be annoying as the correct cylinder i brought over here in England was expensive....
    I couldn't drive the car when i brought it so i can't make any comparison before and after the mechanical rebuild . I checked the shoes and they are correctly fitted and the have a good contact patch on the drum.
    The engine is the original 352 and is next on the list for a rebuild but still pulls 19 inches of vacuum , i checked that last week.
    I only brought the willwood kit as it seemed a easy bolt on job , living in England every thing for American cars is expensive and very little is available second hand, nothing was mentioned when i brought it that any other parts might not be compatible , you live and learn ...
    I drive a 1965 mk1 Humber Sceptre as an everyday car and have done since i brought it in 1990 so i have a good experience of how older cars feel even the standard brakes on that (disc / drum ) would slow it down from 90mph pretty quickly ,with out the amount of effort the old wagon takes . Although the original Humber set up did fade on track use( long since upgraded )
    I'll do some proper calculations for the master cylinder size at the weekend.
    Thanks again to all who helped.
     
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  15. 62rebel
    Joined: Sep 1, 2008
    Posts: 3,232

    62rebel
    Member

    Good on ya for trying to manage a 59 tank in England! I can't imagine trying to drive a car that size there!
     
  16. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,814

    BJR
    Member

    1 1/8" is a big bore unless you have a really big booster on it. I bet a 1" or even a 7/8" bore would fix your issue.
     
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  17. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    Its not so bad , supermarket car parks can be a bit tight and a narrow local river bridge puts a look of fear in to some oncoming drivers faces ! haha , its the price of fuel at just over $7 a gallon stops me using it as much as i might , although i have done 8000 in the last 3 years
     
  18. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,966

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you keep the original master cylinder, make sure you remove the internal residual check valve, as it's not compatible with disc brakes. I would then install an inline 10 lb valve in the rear line for your rear drums.
     
    town sedan likes this.
  19. I run a 1" bore master, from Speedway, but same as a '72 Mustang disc/drum master. Does Rock Auto deliver to England? You may be okay with a master matched to the booster. I like to use a OG style booster, not sure how much room is on the '59, I never tried to match one up.
    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Spee...ster-Cylinder-1-Inch-Bore-Disc-Drum,1985.html

    This is the distribution block I'm using, but made by CPP brakes.
    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-Proportioning-Blocks-With-Brake-Light-Switch,6160.html
     
    Baumi likes this.
  20. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
    Member

    You said it's got an original style single piston master cylinder. This might be a part of the problem, besides bore size and possible booster problems. The master is designed to move fluid to 4 drum cylinders and may not be able to supply enough fluid for the disc brake pistons. Good luck and let us all know how it turns out. In the meantime let the car keep it's social distance until it is feeling (braking) better.
    -Dave
     
  21. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    Thank you bobss396 , thats really helpful ,a dual master cylinder would be better too. Yes Rockauto and Macs have had plenty of my hard earned money. I'll work out the correct master cylinder size today , and try to measure the pressure as soon as i can.
    I also didn't know the master cylinder had a internal residual check valve , that might account for why i have always wondered why sometimes the brakes seemed to drag on the discs .
     
  22. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 9,013

    belair
    Member

  23. I missed the OG master thing. I have seen the smaller boosters used on the '57-'59 Fords, think space is jammed up with the wiper motor so close. Post a picture of your installed booster.
     
  24. This is my set up with distribution block. The master is close to the wiper motor. So most who make boosters (on eBay) shoot them way out with a bracket. I mounted the master & clutch master to a common plate that was aluminum and weak, replaced it with one make from 1/4" (6mm...) steel.
    42-003.JPG 42-004.JPG
     
  25. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    I haven't got the original vacuum wiper , it was missing when i got the car ,i used a Ford Escort rear window motor mounted inside the car so space hopefully shouldent be a problem .
    I did some proper calculations last night and 1" cylinder should be about right , this compares well with the Humber I I drive everyday with fluid movement ratios of master cylinder and caliper movement.
    I'll also check the pressure when I borrow a gauge on Monday
     
  26. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 14,799

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I’m thinking I can see a possible problem. If I’m detecting a SBC valve cover I’ll go with a Ford of the 50’s rejection of a GM engine.:rolleyes:
    All kidding aside a smaller MC bore really helps with pedal pressure along with the pedal ratio under the dash. With no power 7/8” works great and if you do go to front discs you won’t need power.
     
  27. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    I checked the pressure tonight , 750 lbs/sq' and 1000 lbs/sq' with the engine running ,suggesting again the booster works . The gauge was from a welding bottle and i tried it against 5 others they all varied quite a bit , i couldent find a proper hydraulic gauge .
    perhaps i'll just have to bit the bullet and order a smaller cylinder.
     
  28. Don't forget the rubber lines, they can balloon out under pressure if they are older and not transmit the line pressure where it is needed. Thinking mainly of the rears I assume you got new lines with your front disc conversion kit.
     
  29. Oliver Steward
    Joined: Dec 28, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Oliver Steward
    Member

    Thanks for that , but i replaced all the rubber lines with stainless steel braided flexys when i rebuilt all the mechanical stuff.
     
  30. I run a 1" master and it is fine.
     
    Baumi likes this.

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