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Technical Something interesting I was reading on engine oil.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Roothawg, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 24,523

    Roothawg
    Member

    I was researching a few things on Joe Gibbs website and I ran across this article.
    Thought it might be of some interest, since I often see folks suggesting the use of diesel oil for the zinc content.

    Blues4U prolly already knows this, but I found it interesting.... :)
    https://tech.drivenracingoil.com/buyer-beware-diesel-oil-changed/
     
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  2. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 31,179

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

  3. The ISB 6.7 Cummins still has a flat tappet camshaft. The diesel oil formulations still have to take this into account. Blues4U has forgotten more about oils than I will ever know, but I’m sticking with 15w-40 diesel oil.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  4. no55mad
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 1,956

    no55mad
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    ZDDP is sold by an Alliance Vendor here. ZDDPlus also has a good website addressing this issue. Basically, buy conventional gasoline engine oil and add ZDDPlus.
     
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  5. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Yes, I've read it and can clarify things. First off, Joe Gibbs may be great oil, I don't know, the specs look good, I suspect it probably is really good stuff; but their web page tech stuff is heavily influenced by marketing crap, it's really embarrassing and I wish they'd get real. But then, most every lube companies marketing sucks real bad (even the company I work for, I cringe sometimes when I see their adds).

    With that said, the deal is that with the CJ-4 specification that was put in effect in 2007 IIRC placed a chemical limit of 1200 ppm on the amount of phosphorus allowed in the oil. The main source of Phos in engine oil is ZDDP, the P on the end stands for phosphate, which contains the element Phosphorus. So to keep Phos below the allowed limit ZDDP in the oil was reduced down to around 1200 - 1300 ppm, which is still pretty damn good and better than what was common in auto engine oils of decades ago when flat tappet cams were common. Plus the chemical itself has been improved over the years for better protection at lower treat rates.

    But there's more to the story, and this gets a little deep, so forgive me for getting too geeky here. But it was very common to co-license engine oils with the C_ category for diesel engines (or "Commercial") and the S_ category for passenger car engines (or "Service"). If a lube company wanted to label their product with both the C & S license, then it had to meet the right specs. So, and this get's ridiculous here, but if the label on the bottle of oil listed the S category first and the C category second, then the oil had to meet the specs for the S category (800 ppm Phos). If they flipped that, and they placed the C category first and the S category second (for example, CJ-4 / SM) than the oil would have to meet the specs for CJ-4 and it was allowed to have the higher limits for Phos (1200 ppm). With the new category of CK-4 diesel engine oils that were first released in 2017 the industry changed that. The new rules say that if you co-license a product, it must meet the specs of both, meaning that the limit for phos in now 800 ppm for all co-licensed products. So some brands that wanted to maintain the co-license had to limit the ZDDP in the oil, and you will only see levels of around 800 - 900 ppm in those oils. Those that chose to do away with co-licensing and stick with CK-4 license only can still have up to 1200 ppm of phos.

    This did cause some concern in the diesel engine industry, and Ford initially refused to allow CK-4 oils in their diesel engines, requiring the use of CJ-4 oil. They developed their own specification, and started approving oils that met their requirements. So now there is a Ford specification that owners of those engines need to make sure the oil they use is approved by Ford.

    And that's where we're at right now. Not nearly as interesting to read as the Gibbs website, but this is the way it is. The bottom line IMO is, diesel engine oil is still the most practical option for most of us out here with engines with flat tappet cams. It is what I use, though I use and recommend oils that are CJ-4 or CK-4 licensed only and do not have the SN category shown on the label. Besides, I do a lot of oil analysis and I can easily see how much zinc is in the oil.
     
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  6. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,415

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    540 Rat has s stack of stuff online that is factual and informative.
     
  7. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,256

    Gman0046
    Member

    Never understood why some folks insisted on using diesel oil like Shell Rotella when you could buy engine oil with ZDDP added by the oils manufacturer. Valvoline VR-1 as an example.
     
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  8. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,415

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    I used it because Shell recommended it for a Babbitt bearing engine I had. Manufacturer recommended oil seemed to be a good idea.
     
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  9. Thank you Blues4U for the excellent explanation. I learn something from you every time you post.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  10. Here is a really old goody,,,been around a long time.
    I still think it is one of the best,,,,but,,,I’m old school.
    Don’t get me wrong,,,most new stuff is great,,,,most,,,,,but,,I’m still old school.
    It makes an excellent assembly lube as well,,cheap,,,but tried and true.

    Tommy
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Blues 4U has been saying forever that additives are NOT a good idea. A quote from him from another thread.

    Of course the cam manufacturers recommend you use a lubricant with zinc in it, zinc is still the predominant anti-wear additive used in ALL angine oils (except railroad engine oils), and that is one of the things that guy gets wrong. All auto engine oils have ZDDP additives, it's just the level has been reduced. The main thing here concerning what I posted above, is that the oil is formulated with the zinc in it, so that the zinc matches with the rest of the additive package in the oil and there is no adverse reaction. My comment was about AFTERMARKET zinc additives. When you use an aftermarket lube additive (ALA) you have no idea how well it is going to blend with and work with the fully formulated oil your adding it to. Fully formulated lubricants have a carefully balanced blend of chemicals, many of them like ZDDP are surface acting, they compete with each other for space on oil wetted surfaces. When you add an ALA you can disturb the balance, and instead of additives working synergistically together they can be antagonistic with each other, and performance of all them can suffer. Many tests have been done that show ALA's can and do actually increase wear.
     
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  12. Sorry K13,,,,,didn’t mean anything by it.
    But when you consider STP has been around since before some of us have been alive,,,I think I might give it the benefit of the doubt.
    And,,,from personal experience,,,when we do go through our engines after many years,,,there is no sludge build up or excessive wear. However,,,we do service them with routine oil changes,,,,maybe that helps it work also.

    Tommy
     
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  13. This is a reply email I got from Shell when I asked about ZDDP content of the new formula Rotella:
    9/24/2018
    "Hi Austin,

    Thank you for your interest in Shell products.

    Our Rotella T4 15W-40 (CK-4) contains about 1200 ppm of zinc and 1100 of phosphous. These are the components of the ZDDP for anti-wear protection.
    Rotella T4 15W-40 (CK-4) is generally recommended for older flat tappet cam motors."
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  14. ...........Interesting information, Austin.:D;)
     
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  15. That's my stage name, Austin Martin.....or was that Aston Texas.:)
     
  16. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I use it for several reasons, besides the level of ZDDP.

    First off I like the viscosity. Most common viscosity grades are 10W-30 & 15W-40, which IMO are great alternatives for use in engines that were originally designed to use SAE 30 or 40 viscosity grades for the vast majority of climates. Being in the pacific southwest region, I like 15W-40. If I was in the upper midwest region or upper north east I may use 10W-30 instead, but the typical viscosities of heavy duty diesel engine oils fit the application very well IMO. And if I operated a car in winter temps in those northern regions I may even opt for 5W-30 or 5W-40 synthetic oils.

    Second, HDDEO's tend to be blended with very high quality base oils that resist oxidation and have a high viscosity index; the formulations are very robust for extreme operating conditions, they are capable of neutralizing nasty byproducts of combustion, they resist the formation of lacquers and varnish and will clean up old dirty engines that already have some deposits started from lesser quality passenger car oils or over extended drain intervals. IMO this is excellent for vehicles that get driven infrequently, but when they do get driven they get beat on hard, then they get put away to sit again for a period of time until they get fired up again and beat on again. Compared to something like Valvoline Racing Motor Oil, which I don't really have much technical info on, but a racing motor oil is not intended to be used for long intervals, it's intended to do its job during a race, and then be drained and replaced with fresh oil frequently. It's designed to deal with racing fuels that will often contaminate the sump. I think it's a better a choice for somebody who actually races their car, and changes the oil after every race or every session. Not so much for the average hot rodder who's car may never see a race track, or very infrequently.

    And 3rd, unlike men all ZDDP's are not created equal. The term ZDDP refers to a broad category of chemical compounds, with varying levels of performance. There are even primary and secondary ZDDP's, that perform differently. I can't tell you about Valvoline RMO, but I can tell you that the ZDDP's in Rotella and in most other major brand HDDEO's are well developed for excellent protection against wear in extreme applications. They also use Boron and moly additives for additional protection. They are subjected to extreme tests that measure the wear on components, I trust them. Valvoline RMO is not an API licensed product, it has not been subjected to the same torturous testing environment. It may perform very well, but how would y0u know? It's an unknown as far as I'm concerned. I know a HDDEO that carries the CK-4 license has passed wear limit tests, I don't know that about the Valvoline. BTW, I just looked up the specs on Valvolines website, and kudo's to them for posting the information (try to finds that on Joe Gibbs website), but the typical level of ZDDP in the the 10W-30 is only 1100 ppm. That's a little less than Rotella .

    https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...2d889bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1
     
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  17. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    FYI, this is basically a long chain polymer in a heavy base oil. The ZDDP level is very low, this would actually result in diluting (reducing) the level of zinc in your oil, not adding to it. The polymers will shear quickly in use and fail to provide much use, but they are subject to volatizing due to the heat of combustion and can lead to piston and ring deposits, not generally a good thing. I would avoid this crap.
     
  18. Every time I see FYI in capital letters it always means someone is talking down to me.
    I am certain you are very intelligent,,,but,,you need to work a little harder on your bedside manner Doc.
    Thank you anyway.

    Tommy
     
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  19. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Sorry, I don't know about being very intelligent, but I do have some knowledge on the topic. Would fyi in small letters be less authoritative?
     
  20. Wow.....got's to wunder what was around in 1955 when we's were going coast to coast.........
     
  21. pwschuh
    Joined: Oct 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,827

    pwschuh
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I just changed the oil in my early 70's 4WD truck (built motor with 262 cam) using Rotella T6 15W-40 and I added a little Lucas ZDDP additive. Looks like I needn't have bothered with the additive.
     
  22. Wow...a little touchy are we. I’m finding the information that is being posted by an expert in the field being discussed interesting. It always amazes me when people get hurt that it doesn’t fit what they want it to fit.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  23. Don’t take it personal, that’s some typewriter and auto correct features. Now if a fella (like me) was going to talk down to someone I sure am not going to go thru the effort of a nice clear explanation .
     
  24. oldiron 440
    Joined: Dec 12, 2018
    Posts: 3,299

    oldiron 440
    Member

    Valvoline Racing Oil was mentioned specifically a few posts back and I have a question about that in general. I have five five gallon buckets of the product from twenty years ago. I think one may have been opened but all have been in the basement all this time and I'm wondering if it's good after all this time? I've heard both that it's good and that the additives have settled out of it. It worked good in the past but I don't know what to think.
     
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  25. King ford
    Joined: Mar 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,477

    King ford
    Member
    from 08302

    Greetings Blues4U!..I myself have been using diesel grade motor oil in my older flat tappet non ECM engines for quite some time. What is your opinion on using it in later model ECM ( computer) controlled engines? ..will the zddp level harm the catalytic converters and oxygen sensors...and like several folks I THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFORMATION!!
     
  26. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,217

    ekimneirbo

    First let me say that I don't believe there is one exactly correct answer that satisfies everyone, and I believe that Blues4U has done an excellent job trying to help all of us. I appreciate the time and effort he has put into it.


    I think I understand what he is attempting to say here, but then it leaves other questions. Earlier in the 90s(?) oil was changed to reduce the amount of zinc it contained. This was done for reasons other than benefitting the engine. Apparently it was beneficial to catalytic converters and the environment.....not the engine. So if the zinc was reduced, adding some "could" prove beneficial if the oil composition is still the same.
    But the oil composition didn't stay the same, and we don't know exactly how much zinc can be added because all manufacturers have different formulations. So its really a guessing game and your (experienced) opinion is that no one should put any additive in any oil because it "might" add too much zinc to be compatible with detergents etc.
    chart_additiveclash1-300x98.jpg


    Stock factory engines (pre-roller cam) usually had mild enough cam ramps and valve spring pressures that oil with the reduced levels of zinc provided satisfactory results. Moving on to hot rods, the cam ramps became more aggressive and valve spring pressure increased. Now the reduced zinc level becomes inadequate for many cams.
    A builder is then faced with a choice.
    1. Use oil that is not capable of providing sufficient wear resistance as manufactured
    2. Add zinc to that oil and chance adding too much
    3. Purchase oil that is designed for additional wear with a preengineered mixture of additional zinc.

    I think the confusion is that its okay to use the premixed version of the oil, but not to add your own zinc to your existing low zinc oil. The problem is that a hot rodder may be just as bad off if doesn't use additive as if he does use additive. Apparently there is a ratio/range that is acceptable. (probably varies with the manufacturer)
    Many people have used this additive with successful results. Before the formulation of diesel oil was changed, many many many people used it for break in oil by adding zinc to it. While it may not suit the technical definition of chemical correctness...........it has worked thousands of times. I consider Comp Cams to be the premier aftermarket cam manufacturer in the world. They certainly have done their share of design and testing of high performance cams with extreme spring pressures. They feel certain enough about its capabilities to market it for use with their camshafts........and their reputation is sterling.

    From what I can determine, Gibbs does not manufacture an additive and only sells preformulated oil. Its harder to determine something doesn't exist than that it does, but to the best I can tell, they don't make an add to additive.
    Are you saying that aftermarket oil with the additive mixed in is also unacceptable ?


    Joe Gibbs Racing : Exerpt
    Are you ready for some good news? The key to how much and what type of Zinc your engine needs depends on your engine’s valve train. If you have a stock valve train and no other performance modifications, then an API licensed oil is all you need. Every API licensed oil will protect stock engines under normal street driving cycles.

    When you start making performance modifications or begin racing, everything changes.

    Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.

    (Suggest reading the whole thing at https://tech.drivenracingoil.com/zinc-in-motor-oil/
    Its a good grass roots explanation.
    I respect Blues4U's knowledge and time spent educating us, but when manufacturers recommend a product and stake their reputation on the results.....and when industry professionals have used it for years with good results, I have to feel its an acceptable product.;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  27. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Can I be your friend?

    Yes, it's fine.
     
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  28. T6 Rotella is full synthetic 5-40, T5 is 15-40 blend and T4 is conventional 15-40

    Z2qC0tncpEx_.jpg

    Z2qC0uhcpEx_.jpg

    Z2qC0ticpEx_.jpg
     
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  29. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    Rotella T4 is what I run in my race engines. Used it in my dirt late model's turning them 7500 + twice a lap for up to a 100 laps at a time . Would use them same engine for a full 26 race season.
    I also like Schaffer's semi synthetic in my motors I run on alcohol.
    My friend ran Advance store brand 15w-40 in his 707 inch Pro Mod with 3 stages of nitrous.
    He said why buy that expensive oil when you are either going to change it every week or blow it up and then change it. Of course he ran a roller cam and didn't have to worry about ZDDP.
     
  30. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 2,739

    Kan Kustom
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