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Technical Wheel spacers, input needed

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Budget36, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    Anyone have experience running 2 inch wheel spacers on your front end of a 3500lb car? I'm kinda against the idea, but it can make a quick fix for my issue.

    In my mind---hold the jokes---I don't see any extra stress that running a wheel with different backspacing. But, I wonder about the integrity of the spacers to use.

    So, suggestions on spacers...and definitely suggestions on doing this.

    Thanks.
     
  2. 2in spacers on the front? Bad idea on any car.
     
  3. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,132

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    You better have good wheel bearings.
     
    Bandit Billy likes this.
  4. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    So...was my thinking too, right? But thinking about it...i/e. I have wheels with zero offset on the car now.

    I have a set of wheels but need 2 more inches of offset to mount them.

    Where is the extra load on the bearings coming from?

    That's kinda what I'm looking at...in my mind---no jokes---wouldn't that be the same as running a 2 inch offset anyways?
     

  5. I'd be looking at where the spacers were made and what they're made of. Personally, I wouldn't trust even the best of them.
     
  6. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 31,174

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    so, building a 30's 1 1/2 ton Model AA truck? sometimes cheap (?) and easy is not the best - look at other alternatives
     
  7. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 3,271

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Extra load? It’s leverage.

    The 2” offset wheels pries at the hub. With the spacer it pries 2 inches out thus more leverage against the bearings.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  8. LM14
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,936

    LM14
    Member Emeritus
    from Iowa

    If the spacers put the center contact patch of the tire in the same place as the current wheel there is no additional load on the wheel bearings.

    We ran 2" spacers on race cars for years. Billet aluminum. Never broke a single one. Way more load than your car will ever see and probably more HP run thru rear ones.

    Look at circle track or off roading places for the better spacers.

    SPark
     
    Hnstray and Budget36 like this.
  9. Halfdozen
    Joined: Mar 8, 2008
    Posts: 632

    Halfdozen
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Two inch longer wheel studs, bad idea.
    Adding two inches to the scrub radius, another bad idea.
     
    jimmy six and big duece like this.
  10. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    Think I found the response i needed, sorta came to light in @LM14 post.

    LM14, do you have any contact info, suggestions, i/e who one should use?
     
  11. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member


    No, I'm not looking at using a longer stud, but a spacer that has studs in it, then bolt the spacer to the hub.
     
    jazz1 likes this.
  12. I really don't mean to demean anybody, but this thread seems to have a sort of common theme. A guy asks a question, gets 7 (in this case) answers, and finally gets the opinion he wanted from the get go. As soon as he hears what he wanted to hear, he runs with it. So, my question is, why bother to get opinions if you are really just looking for validation of your own? Not singling this guy out, it happens pretty regularly. Also, not condemning anyone for their opinions, just seems like a waste of time.
     
  13. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 8,442

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    Best way..
     
    VANDENPLAS likes this.
  14. Al Peckenpaugh
    Joined: Mar 30, 2018
    Posts: 33

    Al Peckenpaugh

  15. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 1,591

    birdman1
    Member

    Yup, we love to have others confirm our thinking. It's all the internet is about
     
  16. LM14
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,936

    LM14
    Member Emeritus
    from Iowa

    Google "2 inch billet wheel spacers". Tons of options. Make sure they are billet, not cast. Watch that you get the same thread on the spacer that is on the hub, don't want 1/2" nuts one place and 12mm the other place. Makes for easier lug nut supply.

    SPark
     
  17. oldiron 440
    Joined: Dec 12, 2018
    Posts: 3,299

    oldiron 440
    Member

    I think about bump steer, I had a set on a VW in the early 80s. You would pull in a driveway and you were lucky if the wheel didn't get ripped out of your hands.
     
  18. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    "If the spacers put the center contact patch of the tire in the same place as the current wheel there is no additional load on the wheel bearings."

    Seems to make sense, but is that what the original question was?
     
  19. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Not one person offering an opinion asked for pertinent information before replying. The closest thing to that was mentioning “if the tire centerline is in the same place.......”.

    From an “engineering” point of view, wheel spacers are not inherently good or bad. It all depends on details. Materials, dimensions etc..

    The OP would be better served if the identity of the vehicle/hub design, OE wheel dimensions (wheel width & backspacing), same info for proposed new wheels, etc. were provided when asking about the suitability of wheels spacers for that specific application.

    For example.......the vehicle is a ‘48 Kumquat Coupe (conventional rear wheel drive typical of the era) ,OE 16”x 4” wheels with 2 1/2” backspacing (zero offset). The proposed wheels are are 18” x 7” steelies with 6” backspacing (2” offset) with same wheel bolt pattern as OE. Problem is the tire is too far inboard and contacts chassis/body/suspension. “I found some 2” wheel spacers that seem to solve my fitment problem. Will this work okay?”

    Answer: probably......because the increased backspacing of the new wheel, when combined with the wheel spacer, would put the wheel/tire centerline in it’s stock location. No geometry change , no increase in scrub radius.....possible tire interference with fender opening when turning due to wider tire.

    Substitute an 18” x 7” wheel with 4” backspacing (zero offset) and use 2” wheel spacers and you have a plethora of geometry changes, none of them good. Now, the centerline of the wheel/tire has been moved outboard 2” and the ‘leverage’ on the wheel bearings dramatically increases the load and shifts it from the large inner bearing to the small outer bearing.

    Scrub radius is substantially increased and any significant bump in the road will try to rotate the wheel around the king pins (or balljoints) axis etc. If the front suspension is independent, not a beam axle, the increased wheel offset becomes, in effect, a longer A arm and the car will set lower in front due to more spring compression. Steering effort increases noticeably.

    For real world examples of either scenario ......look to a one ton truck with dual wheels for the first case above. The dually wheels have extreme back spacing to accommodate being mounted in pairs on the rear. Same wheel mounts on the front, but requires substantial “wheel spacer” to put the centerline of tire wheel in it’s proper place.

    Compare that to the “low rider” with a front drive car and 8” wide wire wheels with rear wheel drive offset........enuf said.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
  20. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 3,375

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Thank You, Ray!
    I would have probably summed it up this way:
    Scrub radius is normally an inch or less. @31Vicky with a hemi did a bunch of research on this recently. I believe he found the 'ideal' scrub radius to be about 5/8".
    You do not want to have it more than 2" on any street driven application. Whatever combination of wheel, tire, offset, spacer etc. gives you that will likely be fine.

    Race car stuff does not apply here.
     
    31Vicky with a hemi and Hnstray like this.
  21. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member


    In general, I'd agree with you. But LM14's opinion was what I was looking for:

    1. Someone who had/has used 2inch spacers
    2. Their opinion of them
    3. -bonus-He did it with a circle track car

    Unless I missed it, I didn't read of anyone who had used them and had a bad experience.

    Again, the wheels on the vehicle currently have a zero offset (factory). The wheels I want to use have a 2 inch offset. To locate the wheel properly I'd need the 2 inch spacer.
     
  22. error404
    Joined: Dec 11, 2012
    Posts: 383

    error404
    Member
    from CA

    I've run them on several vehicles (not 2", but 1.5" I believe), never had any issues. I know alot of folks frown on using them, and if I had a perfect world I wouldn't need to use them, I'd have wider axles instead. But that's not always the case.


    I would just suggest you use medium strength loctite, and torque them properly. Also make sure the mating surface on the brakes is nice and clean and smooth. Aluminum will conform to any slight bumps sticking out, but I still think it's a good idea to clean it well.
     
  23. download.jpg I'm not addressing any of the issues concerning bearings, steering geometry or any of that. I am just leery of the quality of the spacers especially in this day and age of chinese counterfeits of virtually everything. Just my own personal paranoia.:( By the way, I'll admit to using adapters in the old days to use Chevy wheels on a Ford. Didn't have any problems
    Cracked-Wheel-Spacer.jpg
     
  24. LM14
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,936

    LM14
    Member Emeritus
    from Iowa

    I didn't ask a lot of questions because he mentioned he was changing offsets and the spacer would help fix his problems. That's the basis for my statement about putting the tire centerline back in it's original place. If it puts the centerline someplace else my statement is irrelevant. The brand of car is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The suspension type is totally irrelevant. He's simply using a spacer to restore the tire to it's original centerline because of a wheel change.

    My reference to racing with them for years is relevant. If we can run them on the RF corner, or RR corner or the LR corner of a 3200# dirt track stock car and not break them, they are plenty strong for his application. We did things to spacers that he would never dream of doing. Going into a corner at 100 MPH on a rough dirt track puts loads on the suspension far in excess of what that same spacer would see on the street. The racing comment was a strength statement only.

    Off roaders use a lot of wheel spacers with no issues. Buy quality and you will be fine. RE-torque the spacer to the wheel after 100 miles and every so often after that is commonplace.

    Some people hear "wheel spacer" and freak out, even though they have absolutely no real world experience with them. No need to, they are used all over motorsports without concern. Having the correct backspacing is ideal but sometimes we make concessions and done properly this is not a big deal at all.

    If you are putting a 2" spacer on, bolting the same wheels back in place and moving that tire centerline out 2" you will have problems with bearings, bump steer, exaggerated caster feel and probably keeping the front end aligned if on the front. This scenario would be totally unacceptable. That was not the feel I got from the OP, he is just trying to reclaim what he had before he changed wheel offsets.

    He's simply decided a 2" spacer will keep his tire centerline where it is before the anticipated wheel offset change. He's not really changing the location of the tire so there is no loading changes, scrub radius changes, caster gain issues or anything else going on in his situation. Then it's a simple matter of the spacer used. Billet spacers that bolt in place and the wheel bolts to the spacer are perfectly safe is properly used and maintained.

    That's my opinion, your mileage may vary. If you have real world experience (which he is looking for) feel free to share it, spouting theory you read from somebody that very well could have misused a product (or used a cheap inferior product 30 years ago) and taking it as gospel is not helpful to the OP. I have 25 years experience with spacers and changing vehicle dynamics with them. Very common to do on dirt track cars. I have NEVER hurt a single spacer in my time using them.

    JMO,
    SPark
     
  25. Junior Stock
    Joined: Aug 24, 2004
    Posts: 1,891

    Junior Stock

    Those look to be cast and not billit.
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  26. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,250

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Straying from the thread a bit, but are those floating disks in your second photo? What vehicle? Thanks!
     
  27. Ken Smith
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 413

    Ken Smith
    Alliance Vendor

    Not true. The farther you move the wheel flange away from the bearings, the longer the "lever arm" is. The vertical load is the same, but the bearings have to counteract the longer lever arm. Whether or not that will overload the bearings would take a more specific engineering analysis.
    If the tire is in the same location, the scrub radius and all of those geometries remain the same. Only the load on the bearings changes.
     
    jaw22w and 57 Fargo like this.
  28. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    Wheel spacers- a good place to hide billet!
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  29. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    "Not true. The farther you move the wheel flange away from the bearings, the longer the "lever arm" is. The vertical load is the same, but the bearings have to counteract the longer lever arm."

    I have to disagree, I think LM14 is right here, in the case of the tire center line not changing.
    In effect, the inner face of the spacer becomes the mounting face of the wheel. The bearing doesn't feel any different forces if the distance is made up from spacers or more metal cast into the wheel.

    Another way to imagine it is to think of a very thickly cast wheel bolted to the hub. Now machine away an inch of the wheel mounting surface, and replace it with a one inch spacer. The wheel and tire are in the same positions as before we made the modifications.
    Does the bearing now experience different forces?
     
  30. 9441AD8F-40D8-4284-B921-D98CF34B3E5D.jpeg The state of Texas will NOT pass your vehicle for state inspections if you have either spacers or adapters on your ride. That includes late or early model vehicles. You may “slide thru” if the person doing the inspection does NOT notice the modifications!
     

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