Hot Rods Electrical expert needed

A friend asked me to TIG weld exhaust brackets on his chassis. I brought all my equipment to his house and am having a hard time for some reason. This is what I suspect. His house was built in the early 1900's with the old 2 wire system, no grounds. He had the house renovated with all new wiring, not the garage however. Next spring he plans on running a 100 amp service to the garage. For now the garage has only two wire service, again, no ground. Could the reason I'm having trouble be because the machine is seeking a ground. It's not the welder, it runs fine in my shop, I'm stumped!

 

Is welder 240 or 120 - that maybe yer problem

 

Well, I'm not an electrician, but seems to me that you can simply drive a spike in the ground and connect a ground, just like the ground that the house has! I do this when I use my portable generator, which by the way, is another suggestion I have: borrow a generator to do the job.

 

My dad's garage was like that. We wound up putting in a sub-panel in the house next to the breaker panel with a plug for the welder.

 

Bubba, it's dual voltage but he only has 120V. in the garage.

 

Good ground is 'grass roots'. Or something like that. When I wired my shop for 220, I ran 3 leads of 0 gauge from the 100 amp sub panel I installed at the back of the house. These cables were encased in grey underground conduit.

I also ran a #0 cable down from the shop panel through the wall, to a 'ground ground'.
A friend came over and asked why I was sledge hammering a 3 foot length of Rebar into the ground next to the wall.
"Grounding to the Good Earth," was my reply.

 

It is possible that the welder wants to see a ground before it powers on.

As far as making your own ground goes... make 100% sure any ground source you create or choose to use is a really good ground. I have been involved for most of my adult life in large scale event production where we have very large sound, video and lighting systems. I have see more problems that were created by making a "better" ground. The ground point provided by the utility service provider is usually a very good ground reference.

 

That might be attaching to (indirectly) the galvanized plumbing underground...or not, as it's mostly plastic nowadays. Drive a looong spike in the ground. Guess where it goes.
Why do you think they call it 'common ground'? It's provider is GOD.

 

That should have been 4 conductors, run as a cable, if you want 240v, you'd need 2- 110v lines, 1 'Neutral' (that White wire to create the 110v) and the Green ground wire. If you seperate the grounds from their positive wires then that is the very principle behind an arc welder. Bad juju that. The 'Hot' and "grounds' have to be run together so the magnetic fields balance each other and that is what the circuit breaker reads, if you seperate them the fields won't 'talk' to the circuit breaker and it'll never kick under many overloaded conditions.
When the service first enters a house you have 2 'Hot' wires and a common ground/neutral conductor, those grounds are joined in a common bussbar and that is where the ground rod & copper plumbing get grounded. From that point forward the 'neutral' (white wire) and the 'ground' (green wire) are seperated. With each hot wire it has a corresponding neutral to balance the magnetic fields, the ground is terminated at the sam ebus bar but they are run seperate. When you extend the service to a subpanel you must include a seperate nuetral AND ground, they cannot be joined after the main service. You can't drive another ground rod or connect a new ground to plumbing, they ALL have to connect back to the common buss at the main service so the circuit breakers will work like they are supposed to.

 

I think it's a amp and resistance issue. Simply put that 100 year old wiring can't run your equipment. It's like plugging in a 120V air compressor to one of those little brown light cords....you know, the one for lamps.

Worse case scenario.....
You rig something up...make it work, the next day, week or month, his garage burns down. Personally I would not touch this with a 39 1/2 foot pole. I would pack up my toys and not return until his garage is properly wired.

 

A ground wire is only there as an 'emergency' current path and for life safety reasons; it's not required for circuit operation. You have some other problem, I suspect it's a voltage drop issue if the garage is very far from the house. Just like plugging into a too-small cord.

You might want to check the current NEC. I'm retired and they may have changed it back, but that was changed a number of years ago and the change was they no longer allowed 'carrying' the ground from the main panel to a sub-panel in a separate structure; you took the hots/neutral to the panel, but had to drive a new ground rod (or rods) for the new panel. As far as having the wires 'grouped', that makes virtually no difference to a circuit breaker. It is a required practice because if you separate the conductors into individual metal raceways, you'll get inductive heating.

Grounding is poorly understood even by engineers, they're constantly changing the NEC as they learn new things.

 

Rebar , while not much better than nothing, is a lousy ground , 3 ft. Isn't long enough either , a good ground is a copper coated rod ,6-8' long ....to the op , your suffering from insufficient electrical supply ( wires can't carry enough amperage )

 

I think at this point the easiest thing for my friend to do, is to estimate where the new service will be installed next spring. Pick up a ground rod from Lowes or an electrical supply, they are only about $15 and bang it in. He will need one anyway with the new service and run a ground wire from the grounding rod to the box. It's worth a try.

 

I agree that the ground is not a functional necessity for electrical appliances, but it could be that the unit is failing to run because it senses the absence of an emergency ground. Like a GFI needs to sense a ground to properly function.
I also agree that a current drop may be suspect. The old house probably only wired a 20 or 30 amp service to garage in the first place.
Electricians have charts to figure this stuff out, like gauge of wire and distance travelled equals safe current loading.

 

Thank you for clarifying, I thought that looked a bit wonky.

 

Something else that may help pinpoint the issue, use a volt meter and test the plug.
Do you have 110-115 volts at the plug?
Or is it like the little brown extension cord stretched out to far, and only 75-80 volts?
If you do not have proper voltage at the plug, you can ruin your equipment.

FWIW, I also have a old house and need to upgrade my electrical service.
I have 2 wire with no ground, 100 amp on the house.
A sub panel in my garage and a 220 plug for my dryer. I share that plug with my welder and it works fine. I also checked my connections and have 110 volt on one side, 114 on the other.
My welder is a new Forney 190 multi process and works fine without the ground.
I would rather have a ground, but do not think that is your problem.

 

Early two wire service was rated at 30 amps tops. Some even as low as 15. Probably a 14ga cloth wrapped hot leg and a neutral.

 

just a question for the electricians(I'm not)...could the polarity be reversed on the outlets in the old garage wiring? The reason I ask is, that my old home was wired wrong on the outlet polarity. It defiantly screws up "some" "electronic" things, but not all of them.

?

.

 

Make sure you do not bond the neutral to ground in subpanel and yes you do need a true grounding rod - code usually is one size smaller than feeder -if you use aluminum must go up one wire size - if in doubt don't - call an electrican

 

At this point, it would seem that the easiest thing to do is to haul the chassis back to your shop and do the welding there. Then, next spring or whenever, do the the garage re-wire correctly or even overboard. No electrician ever complained the wire gauge was too big..

 

Hey Bubba,
I understand you're not supposed to bond the neutral to ground in a subpanel, HOWEVER, if you are putting a subpanel in a remote building, doesn't it act as a new main, its own main? In other words, the feed coming in will be a hot leg (or two) and a neutral, and the structure has its own earthen ground (together with a bond to neutral in the box)?

 

wraymen, almost exactly as you describe. 30 amp, glass fuses and what looks like two solid #10 rubber, cloth wrapped wires, no ground. Digital voltmeter shows 121 volts and the garage is about 25 feet from the house, so I don't think there is any substantial voltage drop. I'm waiting for the techs at Miller Welding to get back to me and I'll post what they have to say.

 

Lol! When I installed my hot tube I needed a gfi outdoor panel, a 50 amp breaker in the panel in the house and 120’ feet of number 6 wire and conduit

Shit it was a lot of money the small number 8 wire ( what’s used for your stove ) was about 1/2 the price per foot.

I call up my buddy who’s and electrician and told him what’s up and if I could use the cheaper/ smaller gauge wire.
His answer was “ sure you can, just remember you won’t feel the electricity in the tub when you get in”
...... fuck ok I’ll get the bigger gauge !

 

buba55's diagram has it right. Though you do need to ground the neutral at the garage so there is a path to earth for the over current protection to operate if the neutral were lost. The voltage is most likely your problem. Or the probable low voltage in the garage. Amperage is created by the load of your device in relation to the voltage of that device. You're not running amperage. The equipment on the circuit is creating amperage. It is the amperage of a circuit that will trip the over current protection if it exceeds the limit of the circuit breaker or over current protection..

 

@Mike51Merc - any subpanel must be wired as diagram shows - to prevent back feed from main panel
I'm not an electrician - but I've worked around it my whole working life - safety first - when in doubt - DON'T - call an electrician !
@52HardTop - as far as I understand the neutral must not be bonded to ground at subpanel - thus a four wire service feed from main panel - I did install a ground rod at my subpanel and tied it to separate ground buss

 

If you have Earth leakage detectors (also known as residual current or balance detectors), which are mandatory on our electrical installations in Australia, do not install a separate earth at a sub-board, as you will probably get an "earth (ground) loop", which will trip the detectors. I would have to agree with those that said your final loaded voltage may not be the full 110v which it needs. The only way you can check is to measure the input voltage while the machine is "on" and working (loaded). Open circuit voltage means nothing, it all depends on what is there when you squeeze the trigger.

 

A GFI doesn't need a ground to operate; in fact, installing a GFI in place of ungrounded outlets where no ground is present in old houses is an approved use to get three wire outlets in place of two wire. GFIs work by measuring the current on both wires, and if the difference exceeds about 50 milliamps it then trips.

 

Yep. Even it today's builds one can find #14 wire. Brought my 120v mig home to weld my motor mounts at my condo. Surprise, didn't happen. The darn thing was wired off the two bathrooms and a gfi.

 

I have worked as an electrician learned from my father-in-law who taught the journeyman's electrical course.
I have worked with residential, commercial and large scale show power for 35 years.
All AC power systems pretty much work the same.
The National Electrical Code practices are common to the entire US.
There are no "maybes" or "ifs" in proper electrical practice.
Here is how it works.

GROUND in an AC system is technically referred to as SAFETY NEUTRAL.
NEUTRAL IS TIED TO THE SERVICE PROVIDER'S GROUND REFERENCE.
SAFETY NEUTRAL IS ALSO TIED TO THE SERVICE PROVIDER'S GROUND REFERENCE.
SAFETY NEUTRAL was developed to provide a second path to ground in the event the NEUTRAL path is broken.
Without the SAFETY NEUTRAL the HOT voltage would still be at the appliance or device being powered without a path to EARTH.
If you touched the powered device you could very easily be the path to ground and receive a shock.

THE SERVICE GROUND PROVIDED BY THE SERVICE PROVIDER (your electric company) IS THE BEST GROUND REFERENCE. NOT A GROUND ROD!!!!
THE SERVICE GROUND IS WHERE THE NEUTRAL BUSS IN ALL RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL WIRING SYSTEMS IS TIED TO.
This GROUND REFERENCE is tied from your SERVICE PANEL(S) and to the GROUND at either the UTILITY POLE or a power vault. This voltage between the taps at the TRANSFORMER and this GROUND REFERENCE is where the 120V is derived.
240V is the voltage between the two taps from the TRANSFORMER. This is why the wiring to your clothes drier, stove and other 240V appliances has no NUETRAL (it does have a SAFETY GROUND.)
The entire electrical system in your house or any structure gets it GROUND and NEUTRAL from this SERVICE GROUND (remember this is what NEUTRAL is tied to at the SERVICE PANEL)

Some people mentioned driving a rod into the ground for a GROUND REFERENCE.
That is a bad idea because different soil composition, different moisture of soil, too short of a ground rod or any number of problems can create a compromised path to ground.
THE SERVICE PROVIDER'S GROUND REFERENCE IS TIED TOGETHER WITH THE GROUND REFERENCE AT EACH TRANSFORMER LOCATION AND IS A HUGE GROUND SYSTEM.
A GROUND ROD CAN'T BE ANYWHERE NEAR AS GOOD OF A GROUND REFERENCE.

Besides, if you created an AC wiring system using a GROUND ROD it would almost certainly NOT pass your local electrical code.
There is common electrical wiring practice and if you don't know it and don't know how to implement it properly HIRE AN ELECTRICIAN!
At best you will have problems and at worst you will hurt or kill yourself.

Many 240V devices have a GROUND SENSING CIRCUIT and they will not power on if they do not see a proper GROUND.

 

If it is wired correctly, there should be a white wire and a black wire. The black wire should be hot, and the white wire is commonly thought of as the common wire, which should have the same potential as the ground.
I agree that you should add the third, ground terminal by driving a 3 to 4 ft galvanized rod into the ground and wiring it to the bottom round terminal of the socket. After the job is complete, test the new three wire circuit with a continuity tester.
The tester I use is called "Its a snap". It just plugs into the standard three wire socket and the indicators tell you if the polarity is correct. They are normally in stock at any large facility where they sell wiring, such as Home Depot.
Here is an example of a different brand of a similar device with the same functions as the one I use. This saves a ton of time.
Bob

https://www.amazon.com/Meterk-Elect...fkmr2&keywords="It's+A+Snap"+polarity++tester
https://www.amazon.com/Meterk-Elect...fkmr2&keywords="It's+A+Snap"+polarity++tester