No. It's a tall deck/long rod version of the Cleveland small block, with the same bore center distance and head bolt pattern as the Windsor small blocks. It's deck height is 10.297" vs 9.206" C and 9.480"/9.503" W. It has 3" main bearings like the W, bigger than the 2.75" for the C. Bearing surface speed is an issue if you're running high rpm with the bigger mains. The M shares bell housing pattern with the 429/460, and has unique engine mounts. It's as tall and wide as a big block, but the same length as a small block.
"That’s kinda what we are thinking 351W Cleveland heads. We know a guy that makes an intake for that set up." That'd be Vic: He's making a "Clevor" type manifold for putting 351C heads on a 351 Windsor block, it's part number 7183. It's only about 45 years late.
We know this has been done before, nothing new,that’s why we’re here asking questions. No use reinventing the wheel. When I said we knew a guy that makes manifolds, what I meant was he makes some kind of plate to adapt a common manifold, or something like that. We are just in the gathering info phase right now. Have had some good info and some not so good info. We take everything with a grain of salt,... add.. subtract... figure what we’re going to do. Usually you get good info here , that’s the reason for the thread.... sometimes you don’t. Bones
My A Sport Coupe has a 393 Cleveland in it. Scat forged crank, H beam rods, 4 bolt conversion, girdle, custom Comp hyd roller, CHI 2V alloy heads, single plane TFC intake, 750 Edelbrock. From 2,00rpm to 5,500 over 500 lbs ft peaks at about 540. 430 HP at the wheels through TKO 600 Tremec. Returns 19-20 mpg on trips. From memory CHI did make Iron heads with the same improvements as their alloy heads for use in class racing. In Australia we used the Cleveland up through 1984. We also had a 302C (de-stroked 351). These were the motors that had the closed chamber small port configuration. 351C had the same heads as the USA. Phill.
Stock car rules are usually strict about no porting. Are you allowed to port your heads? Check with Brezinski . He does some really good undercover porting work on Ford heads. If you can run aftermarket cast iron heads then my choice would be the Dart 200 cc iron head. You can run the stock crank , good rods and lightweight pistons. Balance the whole assembly . Can you run a solid roller ?
Haven’t got our hands on a rule book yet, there are three classes that are very close together. Have to run flat tappet in all of the classes we want to run in. This group of races is for next year. I think 2 barrel vs 4 barrel separates two classes. Again not 100% sure of all rules at this time, but know it has to to be 351 plus .030, flat top, iron stock head, flat tappet any cam, two or four barrel( different class), have to run HEI. Anyway that’s the word now. Will get ahold of a rule book when available. Thanks Bones
You planning on running at Thunderbird? http://www.thunderbirdspeedwayok.com/rules/ The Factory Stock class spells out it out for the engine, Super Stock, not as much. The Modified classes seem to be very strict, they must have an army of inspectors if they want to enforce all the rules. You need to talk to some drivers or owners that run there. If there is a swap meet coming up, plan to attend.
I ran Islip (closed), a 1/5 mile paved track, Riverhead, 1/4 mile paved for the most part. Bomber cars, lower entry type class that was supposed to be a cheap way to race. The seasons started out with everyone toeing the line as far as the rules went. Limits on cam, rocker arms and so on. But you KNEW when someone was blatantly bending the rules. I ran as cheap as you could get, used street car engines, put my good cam (Chet Herbert cheater) and other goodies into it. Some of them went a full season, some seasons I had 4 engines in a car. We had a Torino that was pretty strong with a stock-ish 429 in it with a cheater cam. That escalated and wound up with a 496 stroked 460 in it. Bought the entire kit from PAW... they still in business?... and had a local shop do the machining on it, we put it together. Ran av gas in it and a Holley 2bbl, amazed on how much power it produced on a 500 cfm carb.
Yep that’s the track my friend used to own. He/we will be running in the USRA modified B there next year. We are still in the talking stage of this engine. . He’s talking to an engine builder in Joplin, think he has decided on the Windsor, as we have found a set of Australian 2v heads, and the Edlebrock intake, as it is quite a bit cheaper than the other intake we were looking at. Thanks guys for all the input. Bones
I have a 351 Cleveland in my '50 Ford coupe and it's running like aa top and sounds bad yo the bone but I haven't driven it yet but hopefully I can report on the power & torque within the next couple of weeks, HRP
The "old-timer" that got me started in race cars always stressed : "THE FIRST MONEY TO SPEND IS ON THE RULEBOOK FOR THE TRACK/ASSOCIATION/CLASS THAT YOU PLAN TO RUN!!!!" After, AND ONLY AFTER(!!), you know the rule book better than the person that wrote it, should you even think about the motor you're going to build!! There's nothing worse than building a "killer" motor & finding out on your first "tech inspection" at the track that it's so far from legal that even the block is not legal!!! Then they go over the rest of the car with a fine-tooth comb! Read some of the stories about Smokey Yunick & his relations with the "tech-crew"!!
Yeah, always start with the rule book before planning a build. I've heard some tracks ban the Cleveland heads from "stock, unported iron head" classes, but that's just hear-say, as I've never had reason to look into it myself.
Edelbrock makes dual planes trick flow has a single plane Australian 2V heads are around same as US heads with better chambers do a search on Clevor I'm curious about the edelbrock the adds say 2 and 4 barrel bolt pattern but what about port size? A 4 barrel intake on a 2 barrel head is going to be a big mismatch.
PAW is long closed. Bob Wasn't it Islip speedway that Wide World of Sports covered many years ago with that crazy figure 8 destruction derby?
6 if you include the 69 Boss 302, but realistically 3 years with the desirable large port, small chamber heads.
The C is one of my favorite engines along with the early Hemis. Reportedly when running a high RPMs for a long time (racing) a bigger than stock capacity oil pan is needed to keep it from pumping dry.
We ran this 39 Merc with a 351 Windsor. World Products Windsor Jr heads, Comp Cams 280 H, Edelbrock Performer 2 V, with a 4412 Holly 2 bbl. The track was a small quarter, we ran high gear with a 7.33 ring and pinion, turned it 6200. Very reliable, won 25 out of 30 main events. The Chevy Boys finally got the car disqualified, by a change in the rules, regarding the heads. She did roar through the Flowmasters.
Yes it was, they had the 1st demo derby on TV, 1964 IIRC. The figure-8 has a long history and the cars there had to run a straight 6. The Ford 223 was immensely popular and so was the front clip from a '62-64 Galaxie.
You have had some good suggestions .I have always liked the 351 w block . The bearings are too big for the bearing speed. Chevy size works well. I haven't heard any suggestions for the GT 40 ,or 40P heads. They seem to work very well. I made 645 hp at 7500 rpm with a .030 over block and stock crank. rods were cleaned up and ARP rod bolts used. Remember the cam ,intake and heads make the hp.
TFS heads ported ,Victor hi port intake that was matched to heads. It had a flat tappet cam that I don't remember the name or specs.
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