Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

wonder how this one steers

 

If the front spring is really really stiff with little movement then I bet it steers a lot better than it rides.

 

If it has "patina" , the"stance" is perfect, and it's built with "period correct" parts, why worry about minor details like getting killed?

And so it goes- K. Vonnegut

 

We're all gonna die.

Why not die doing something you love?!

 

Let me explain it this way. Suppose you build a wishbone with a huge step in the front end of it, which tilts it up at 30°, but places the axle, spindles, etc. exactly as before. The angle between the drag link and the wishbone is totally different but the steering geometry is the same. Or, suppose you have a weird-ass axle which attaches to the wishbone at an unusual height, but is otherwise the same as a normal axle.

Or, suppose you replace the entire assembly of wishbone and axle with a big sheetmetal box, which picks up the frame and spindles in the usual places. On one side of the box you paint a line where the wishbone would have been. On the other side you paint a line at a 45° angle to where the wishbone would have been. Where is "parallel to the wishbone" now? You can paint the line wherever you want, it won't change the geometry of the assembly.

In so far as the wishbone and axle are rigidly bolted together, the position of that tapering length of oval tube in the assembly is arbitrary.

 

I am glad that I have read through this thread. I ordered Pete and Jakes catalogue just to use as reference for steering info (as well as parts I need to track down). I was originally planning on split bones and a vega box. A nice confirmation that my thinking is in line with my parts choices.

 

While I am still a little short of the technical aspects here but I believe you can also use a side steering box such as a 50? Ford pickup (F1) mounted as Henry mounted original without the issues being discussed here meaning down on the frame rail provided geometry is correct...in other words there are Hamb friendly options other than Vega.

 

Enlightening thread. Pretty damned cool guest lecture. Thanks for taking the time Pete!

 

Thanks for the replies.. think I may have this figured

When running split bone/hairpin it forces the axle to twist when in joust and being as how the axle is dropped and the on top of the axle design of the spindle/spindle arm it acts as a lever the more the axle is dropped the more it forces the spindle assymbly into the drag link for a given amount of deflection which forces the car to turn left essentially.. reducing the height of the drag link in the rear is compensation for the lever affect.. the drag link height reduced rear puts the front at a steeper inclination so when set up right should follow the steeper plain/arc of the spindle/spindle arm.. correct?

So I guess the options are remote pitman, custom four link or live with the nature of cowl Exit steering?

 

This thread reminds me of the last election we had here in the good ol usa! Hamb politicians everywhere! This is why this thread is 15 pages long. There is no set of rules to building a damn hot rod. Build it safe and drive the fucking thing. If you don't know ask for help!! Another thing is if someone on here ask for help!!!! More people should try to help other than shoving it down they're throats that they are a newbie! thanks everyone on the Hamb board that actually does care n tries to help. My rant is over.

 

If you’re thinking of setting up a car with near standard height cowl steering with bone/pin what it boils down to is theoretically speaking (I’m not telling anyone what to do) the less the axle is dropped and the closer the steering arm is to to center line of the axle all else being equal the less bump steer the car should exibit.. I think (disclaimer) ...

 

Thought it would have stopped long before now?

 

I said that to a guy once with a t bucket and cowl steering; you could see the front spring was stiff as it came across the parking lot.

 

Novermber 53 hot rod page 40-41 ,, can someone upload a pick, maybe he’ll go away..

27 t w/cowl exit, split bone and undropped axle..

Traditionalists won’t even build a custom when its traditional..

 

Interesting!!!! Just got back to this subject. I now have about 30K miles on my cowl steering setup. The car drives/rides quite well for a solid axle suspension. I understand the geometry of the bump steer issue. On paper it ain't perfect but it's solid and it's safe. I cannot perceive any bump steer in any situation. So,...'tho it may be there, it's not an issue. Sorta like, "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?"
Check your fridge, "is the light on when the door is closed?"
Live a little on the wild side,...it's exhilarating!

 

Jump on the frame horns and watch the steering wheel, does it move back and forth? If so you have bump steer. Car looks great though.

 

As reading this hole thread,should show clearly,if one is not too hardheaded,it's a prob.,too poorly engineer things an then say how great it works! That you feel nothing wrong!=You don't even know what you feel an are happy in you bubble of denial. That's sad. The one time Mr blockhead is going feel the prob. an still will not know it's what messed him up,may turn out to be when the front tires brake grip in a turn an he hits the crub,wall,car,fence,pole,what ever. =If bump steer was not happening at that time,would likely of had grip enough too save it.
Some bricks need to be hit with bigger bricks to feel it!
Cowel steering is not cool to copy when done bad,an 90% plus are bad crap=Not cool!looking to anyone that knows better.

 

wstory, Any chance you are running a Durant steel mono leaf spring?? They take 1000 lbs to deflect one inch. I have a spring calabrater and have tested a few.

 

Pete Eastwood - thanks for starting this thread. Reading through the comments I see a lot of people with incorrect geometry saying it works OK - which I expect it a result of a number of factors like stiff springs that have minimal travel or maybe flex in components that dampens the bump steer.

And of course this isn't just a problem with cowl steering, really any non-4-link (e.g. traditional) car needs to think about this. For example, I just happened across a chassis build from Hot Rod magazine that shows this chassis -- which violates the same rules of geometry you're talking about I believe. Interestingly, it looks like if this chassis had the steering box set up as a cowl steer unit (reversed, mounted so the pitman arm was below, and moved back a couple of inches to be behind the firewall) the geometry would probably be better, right?

I'm just trying to understand what works and what doesn't because reading through build threads here has got me thinking I need to build another hot rod. This is a dangerous site

 

Yes Joe, I believe it would be better as you say. The closer you can get the pitman arm pivot point to the hairpin pivot point - both vertically and horizontally - the better off you would be.

 

Yeah, right about where all the pedals travel thru and where your feet want to be. Then it would jack the steering wheel into the windshield and need street rod tilt steering or SR clear steer.
Or move it into the cowl and the mess starts all over again.

The more I think about it, that bell crank set up shown earlier seems like a viable way out of geometry and space issues at the expense of more moving parts.

 

I have a new "replacement" SoCal spring. The car is currently at the trimmer so, at the moment, I can't measure travel or bump steer by jumping on the frame horn.
In the meantime, since y'all are hands on blokes, check this,.......
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...-stowable-roadster-top.1113268/#post-12634185

 

I am extreamly impressed with your top project. I am sketching some ideas from you for use on mine. Thanks!

 

Any time Bud,
Stay tooned!

 

Yes, same problem, it's going to bump steer.

 

I got a message from a HAMB'er the other day.
He didn't want to post on the board, but wanted to share something with me.
His '32 had cowl steering. He had driven it from coast to coast & more.
Said he was tired of the "evil handling".
Changed it to a cross steer set up, said it was " a 100 times better"
His words not mine.

This whole "cowl steering" thread reminds me of something my Dad used to say,
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

 

I've tried to kill myself for decades this way, still no success. If this keeps up I'll have to start playing Russian Roulette.

 

Dearest "P-Wood"...... Been trying to talk about chassis geometry for a long time on here,.... However 84.38% of the time it falls on deaf ears,.....(give or take) Anyway I am not only a fan (your credentials in building Hot Rods is WITHOUT QUESTION !),... And the history you have in Hot Rodding is unquestionable !

I am 100% with you on this subject,.... Keep on truckin' P-Wood..... Your wisdom and knowledge is a true asset for any that will just listen.

 

My A has an ifs (p.o.). If I put a fake cowl steering setup on it...never mind.

 

Haven't read all this thread, just a few pages as I never intend to use cowl steering and wasn't interested in going through 15 pages. However I was just looking at my favourite thread, "Vintage Shots from days gone by" and here is an interesting picture. Not exactly cowl steering but close.This one will give Pete a heart attack!!!