ooooooo...gloves are off......I remember when the fellow safetied the Ole Hotrod he said no matter what you do with these old cars they are really not safe...as you said vintage technology...
My suspension knowledge could fit in a thimble but at what point is it considered acceptable practice to remove material from a critical suspension part that was not designed to be machined regardless of whether it was done "correctly" or not? Is this a common practice? Sent from my SM-G950W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
It really does involve knowledge of stress engineering and like you we can share thimbles...plastic, silver or silver plated? Seriously good question and a lot of people here have been schooled, influenced or mentored around those that have been involved in these industries. If you've ever watched those Jalopy races, Lakes racing and I know you have...one can just imagine the number of times things have happened due to modded parts. You know that saw cut on the frame for instance. In the right place a crack can start there and when it breaks you could be in trouble. Again I guess we go with the gut and hope for the best. My car flexes squeaks rattles and roars. I had a shock tower break a year or so ago but that was noisy and uneventful. Just stopped due to a new rattle and discovers it broken...removed the shock and broken part an carried on. Could have easily went another way.
When in doubt, follow New Zealand's guidelines. I'll polish off a parting line, round over some square corners, bend Henry parts, re configure pitman arms, make disc brake adapters, re drill axles, shorten rearends, build IFS crossmembers and control arms and even made complete spindles, build tube axles too, build hair pins and ladder bars, frames from scratch. I'd do a lot of stuff but I would not do "that" in "that" way seen here. I bet my My nephew I could break a 7/8" wrench. He said no way!!! Put the box end in the vice and pulled it the WRONG way with a gloved hand. Snapped like a twig with a pretty good ping. In the proper orientation I could have put a 4' pipe on it and not broken it.
Those spring perch parts are "advertised" as forged by both suppliers mentioned. A cast part machines, threads, drills, and grinds and not to mention welds very different than forged parts will. Should take about 3 seconds of any of those operations to determine what the part is or is not.
Ya know 31 with the New Zealand Guidelines it sounds like a race car builder style profession. What is one that knows whats right to do to suspension and chassis. A mechanic that also has a machinists license. Mechanical Engineers that get their hands dirty. I like to think accomplished Custom/Hotrod Builders have a number of people from all walks that help in making the decisions that get one home safely. I always think of Aircraft when shit like this happens. Ya its a car but we are modding and creating critical mechanical components. Serious stuff for sure.
I think this was one of those 1 in 1000 failures that can pop up now and then. Absolutely plan for it with some sort of axle catch brackets and a panhard bar if using a cross steer setup. (I don't think this would have been an off road excursion if a traditional cowl steer drag link were used as it would allow side movement in the axle assembly without adding steering input to the tires...but still, a Panhard is a good plan for all.) Looking at the size of the components and the well pounded history of the Rolling Bones cars themselves, I just can't rush this design to the scrap heap. When you think about it, compared to the parts that are used in this conversion, common T bucket front suspension components are wimpy...yet they last. A piece of tubing welded to a 1/2" bolt is sold as a shackle mount for that design...and some of those center spring perch brackets are marginal at best! Just design in some safety fail safes for the common sense "worst case senarios".
On a good note the way we can a appreciate this car!! Sent from my SM-G930V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
You make some really valid points and I've been looking at some pics. I can't help but wondering what is up with what I'm about to point out and if this played a part in the failure. First this is from 3w Larry's build frame by the RB with The well pounded history ,,, Take a look specificaly at the distance from the spring to the frame within the notch. It's close and pretty tight but it looks like it's about 2-1/2". The notch seems to be well into the upper 1/2 of the rail. Looks like a slight dip 32 front crossmember as well. Now there's been talk of just plain rough and rough as fuck and washboard roads and salt. So look at the next pics of bens car in that same area. The space is greatly reduced compared to that above, the notch isn't as deep and looks like a flat model A crossmember and could have easily been bottoming the spring. A few good pounds could easily have broken that part. Blow them up, zoom in.
Not much room true but the proof would be if there are marks on the spring and frame from repeated contact. I'm sure Ben is going over every inch of the whole car and already has a list started of what he plans to change or improve.
Well now...thats interesting for sure! Hadn't noticed that. I'd be all over those springs looking for witness marks, and even if I found none, I would definately be opening up the slot to allow more suspension movement. Everyone writes the Bones cars off as using the same front suspension design as Doane Spencers car but its really a completely different layout, just that the spring is about the same place and a stock axle is used. Interestingly, Doanes car had a Zee'd frame modification but all the cars sit about the same height. That would SEEM to suggest a spring with more arch on Doanes car and potentially more spring clearance at the frame. The RB layout looks fine to me, but I think you spotted the particular little glitch that started the whole thing off on this version. Even if it turns out not to be...it's something that needs critical attention on any build. Good eye!
Most of the "Bones" style cars use their perches in a upswept fashion. Coupled with a model A or flat crossmember, these cars are very low in front for a non-dropped axle. I used the stock 32 crossmember(narrowed for the pinch, like Doane) with my 32 perches sweeping or drooping downward to get low while still keeping the spring closer to stock frame clearance. This way I didn't have to notch my frame for spring clearance since I don't care for the look. I did a minimum notch for where the axle rises with some boxed frame portion that I feel will catch the axle in a spring failure that also more cleanly blends to the grill shell This post is for comparison use not to condemn others approaches. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Running Shine, That's a great idea with the lip over the axle somewhat like I described in my above thread like Walden does. I will be doing a new chassis and will incorporate your style of lip although I will need to notch the frame as I will be mounting the spring higher into a Walden pinched nose cross member.
That looked like a speedway forged perch pin that had the taper turned off of it in a lathe. (I have seen this setup on atleast a half a dozen hotrods most have logged many trouble free miles. I set my frontend up just like this and since seeing this thread I am going to redo it. The perch pins he and myself and others have used are only 5/8. I am thinking I will look at some big truck (2 ton perches) and machine them for my frontend. I love this stuff and it is a big part of my life, But not worth dying over. Also the tubing through the wishbone should have a grease zert in my opinion as there is friction inside the DOM tubing and the pin caused by rocking of the wishbones.
Ya Ben is a good guy know him since he was a kid. sad to see all his work banged up. Main thing is hes alive to build another one!! and I hope he does always a silver linning the next one may be even more bad ass!!
Pete Eastwood...thanks for your thoughts on this, and I greatly appreciate the response. Both I & a close friend are building similarly-setup roadsters and your input on this is invaluable. Ben... nothing but respect for you and your Deuce and I know the reincarnation will be better than ever. I look forward to seeing the rebuild and if I can help in any way please let me know. As a side note, I bought a set of speedway perches for my roadster, and they are now laying in the trash can. Sam
Couldn't believe this when I first saw it....glad Ben was able to walk away. One lucky guy..... There's has been a lot of talk about the front end setup, I was originally planning this for my Deuce, and was required to have this setup so that the frame/body catches the axle in event of a suspension failure. I hope the car gets rebuilt. Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
geez thats fugly who required it? I dont think it will hold either or is there some gusset I cant see? gets you on the road though
It's not so bad, because with the spring behind design, the radiator still needs to be mounted on the axle centreline to look right. Those tabs could be used to mount the rad. and be hidden by the shell. Chassis in all Australian states are required to have a failsafe thing to land on the axle if the suspension breaks.
Looks like to me that he is thinking somewhat outside the box with this simple fix, that deserves KOODO's not a put down if that is what that was meant to be. Yea it is not the prettiest thing I have ever seen, but it doesn't have to stay like that. Wither it works or not remains to be seen at least it is better than nothing and with a little thought could be made to look damn cool and work way better. I for one wish that Ben had one when is accident happened. Maybe if he did that Duece would not be all twisted right now.
Guys Ben's car had this piece of flat stock above the axle to support the radiator as all "bones" style chassis or most any way do. Yes it is hidden by the grill shell. Wyatt Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
Well if it was there I guess Torana 68 was right about it working after all. I guess I am wondering why something like this wouldn't work?
Probably did one thing but not the other and under those circumstances it did not keep it on the road as evidenced.
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