I've seen some amazing stuff at the GNRS in years past, but I don't know as much as some of you guys, and it makes the show more fun for me to learn a bit about the cars I'll be seeing before I get there. What interesting cars will be on display at the GNRS this year? What are you looking forward to?
The Mulholland Speedster from Hollywod HotRods will be finished and in paint and from the pics they have been posting on Instagram it will be stunning. Unfortunately I won't be attending this year but it is the car I am most excited about seeing at this point. The chassis:
I've watched the Mulholland Speedster under construction for the past three years at Hollywood Hot Rods, I want to be there when it wins. Bob
There will be an additional contender from a fellow HAMBer there, too. It's currently going through final detailing, and it leans much more towards the traditional ...
Who would have thunk that someone would spend that kind of money sexing up Ford's Twin-I-Beam front suspension....... I look forward to seeing it in person though. Air-fare is booked.
Just so you know, ALL of that body started life as 4x8 sheets, ton of craftsmanship & skill there. Bob
it appears to me that the pivot points of the "idler arms " are further apart than the inner tierod ends so if you were to steer to the right side of the car ( the left side of the head on photo) the idler arm would immediately start to scribe upwards reducing lateral movement to the RF tierod and the idler on the RF frame rail would scribe downward generating more lateral motion to the LF tierod ergo the Ackerman is BASS ACKWARDS!....in my opinion based on the photos...how do you see it Cretin?,..others ? Maybe I'm missing something but DAMN that interests me!
I am sure Cretin will explain further as he works for Hollywood Hot Rods but here is a close up picture of the steering. These ends pivot which is part of the "swingset" he mentioned earlier.
Thank you for the photo k13! That is a closeup of what I was calling an idler arm ( common term for similar component on OT late model cars) ...after pondering this overnight I CURRENTLY believe there is Ackerman in the idler arms but none in the spindles as lateral tiered motion is going to be 1to 1 ( no motion ratio increasing turn radius of inside tire)
When we saw the car in 2015 at GNRS, where the above picture was taken, we were told by an employee of Troy's that it was mostly original Packard sheet metal. Because of the shiny condition of the metal we too had trouble determining what was new and how much was original. On his instagram account there are very few pictures that show much detail of the body, but there is one that clearly shows a patch panel being welded in an original fender. They have since replaced the rear deck lid with a raised panel and you can see the right door skin is still in the process of replacement in the above picture. I'll be waiting for a full feature on this car & hope they show what they started with & all the modifications.
The whole point of dealing with the swingset steering setup was to combat the Ackerman issues that arise when facing the steering arms to the front, like the issues in the dreaded suicide front end. Because of the twin I-beam design we used, the springs, and "split wishbone" prevented the steering arms from being in the traditional place. Our only option was to put the steering arms forward. We looked into solutions found in the 4x4 world since the twin I-beam is common there. We landed on the idea of the "swingset" steering. After some mockups, we landed on what we have. The upper pivots of the "idler arms" are outboard of the lower pivots. That means that when you turn right, the left "idler arm" where the opposite end of the right tie rod end connects is inside of the apex of its arc, and the right "idler arm" is outside the apex its arc. This translates to less lateral moment on the left side, and more on the right. I am the one who built this steering setup, admittedly, this is the first experience that I have with this type of steering. But, all of our mockups and tests have proven it to work. This system is something we and I have put a lot of thought into, and even though it was designed quite a while ago, it's a concept I quite often think about. I am open to hearing other options on it as well. The car is not 100% hand made. But, it is also not mostly original Packard. The original concept came about as a car with a Packard grill. We did start with a very rough '36 Packard. We have a rendering of the car vs. the stock Packard, but thats not to say that we simply modified the original. Here are the basic details of the work. The frame is completely handmade in house. All suspension was designed and made in house. Too many small parts and details were designed and made in house. As far as the body, I would say 90% was handmade in house. There are some Packard pieces, but none have gone unmodified. Starting from the front, the grill is clearly Packard, but the shell has been narrowed and shortened. The hood was also shortened and narrowed. The hood sides were also fitted with custom vent doors although they were modeled after stock hood doors from a different model. In the end, the fenders became almost completely reshaped. The cowl was narrowed, and the top reshaped. A reshaped Duvalle windshield was fit. Cowl sides were reshaped, as well as rocker panels. Door skins were reshaped, as well as quarter panels. Complete custom door tops were made. Rear fenders were mostly reshaped, and custom wheel skirts were made. The rear deck was mostly handmade. The stock deckild was deskinned and used in the final shape, with handmade panels surrounding it. Then the rear body lines were added. While many panels were made from scratch, we didn't want to eliminate the "Packardness" of the car. The grill clearly makes it a Packard as does the belt line, and hoodsides. We integrated some modern stuff into the car, but have gone to great length to keep it to a certain coach built vintage visually. I've been a part of this car from concept to current, and will answer any questions to the best of my ability. So, if you have one, I'm happy to answer it.
Thanks, Cretin, for that great explanation! Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping would show up in this thread, and it will give me much more thorough appreciation of the car when I see it.
Thanks for the excellent explanation on the front end setup Cretin. The car is a beauty from one end to another and I sure wish I was able to go to the show this year to see it in person. Seeing the photos I'd say that the frame is every bit as impressive as the body.
Here is one HAMBer Cody Walls is getting ready for the GNRS. Going to be another incredible car. His original build thread is here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/cody-walls-builds-a-35-chevy.976318/
Beautiful chassis...since you asked, It appears to me that the "swinger" upper pivots should be inboard of the lower "swinger" pivots to obtain closer to correct ackerman. Hard for me to tell exactly the upper pivots are since the view is obscured by the frame/hangars. Variations of this type of steering are commonly used in the off-road racing world, but primarily to limit the amount of bump steer in long travel (20"s plus) front suspensions. The front steer ackerman problem is not of so much concern in the design of these systems since the race vehicles spend 90% of the time in the dirt. Any "push" caused by this ackerman issue is pretty easilly overcome with rear brake bias and with a squirt on the gas upon corner exit. It's how you drive these trucks..I driven these trucks thousands of miles in race situations, Baja, California and Nevada deserts. This one is a head scratcher for sure. Again, nice work.
Ackerman. Isn't that determined by the steering arms and not the tie rods nor how they operate ? The tie rods here greatly benefit from the issue of bump steer. Back to ackerman. Notice how long the steering arms are and how much further outward the tie rod ends are than a rear steer that most are accustom to. Great car by the way.
In the case of this car, you could affect ackerman a few different ways. 1. Move steering arms in or out..front steer, the farther out, the more Ack. 2. Move the inner tie rod pivots forward, for less ackerman, or back for more ackerman. 3. Move the upper swinger pivots closer together or farther apart. Closer together, more ack, farther apart, less ack. Even someone who could do the trig, would still have to mock it all up and cycle/measure it to get it best possible. SOP in the off road world.
^^^^^ Let me clarify a little better what I was saying about the steering arms. That's where one will find the primary source of ackerman. On a vehicle with front steer the tie rods are attached outside of the center line of the two king pins. On a rear steer the tie rods ends will be inside the center line of the two king pins. And yes, all the other stuff you've said affects it also but on a secondary level.
Thanks for the compliments guys. We're busting our asses to get it ready. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Thank you very much for the bodywork update, good to know there is some original Packard tin still there. How many years has this project been under construction? Buying my plane tickets tomorrow. Bob
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