Folks Of Interest Fear & Loathing The Classic Car Dealer: Part 2

RE : "Adding value to the vehicle"

• I was proudly in the mechanical auto repair business for 30 years and simply would NOT perform services for most Used Car Dealers because they based the 'needed service' : yes or no , on it's cost, then wanted to tout that 'WE ' did all their service prep work..........WRONG !
• Occasionaly we would buy a dead or dying car and revitalize it to a level we were comfortable with, then sell it face to face to one of our customers and make a reasonable level of profit.

As professional technicians we always wanted to give 'added value' to the vehicles we serviced and make a proper profit as well.
To be fair, there was an up-scale Used Car Dealer in the neighborhood that # 1 knew how to 'call' a car, # 2 knew how to keep a customer coming back. He always performed a full brake job, installed 4 new tires, trimmed out the interior , made sure the engine /trans were proper and had necessary paint work done , all by his team of people. His vehicles were safe and appealing and his customers returned for years and years.
What I am saying is that Ryan is right , give 'em their moneys worth and the system will keep working and they will keep coming back !
circlek

 

That sounds like a pretty good recommendation. Are they still in business? If so who are they?

 

It seems like everyone and their brother is out to make big money on classic cars these days , I really enjoyed both articles you wrote , but technically that rivvy senerio isn't that bad to what goes on these days !

That maaco paint job isn't that big of a deal compared to some of the quickies I have seen , bondo , fiberglass chicken wire, kitty hair , great stuff foam,filling holes and covering rust under some beautiful paint jobs there seem to be lot more talentless people who love money more than classic cars

Let's not even get started on this " flipping " mentality that has taken over last 10 years from cars ,houses ,antiques... Everyone is out for the quick buck

 

I've enjoyed reading this thread, it sucked me in like a Dyson vacuum. Knew a guy that tried his hand at flipping cars many times, never seemed to come out ahead on anything but it sure didn't stop him from trying, and he burned a lot of bridges along the way as well. Often times his deals would start off with something he had traded for or picked up for free, or damn close to it, then they would somehow morph into gold. He was also notorious for trying to maximize his profits by taking all the "good stuff" off a car and peddling it separate, if he picked up a 'Vette w/dual quads and a 4spd you could guarantee he was gonna yank all that shit and replace it with a single carb and automatic, then the price on the car would go up (labor ya know) and the parts were off to the swap meet, but that's a whole 'nuther deal in itself. I understand that he wasn't a dealer by any means but he did interject himself into the position of being a middleman most of the time. He was always on the lookout for certain stuff because he knew of someone else looking for it, so rather than putting the potential buyer in direct contact with the property's owner he would play wheeler dealer to pad his own pocket and this is what really hurt him over time as others began figuring out what he was doing and cut off the supply chain. The examples that Ryan gives in the story of the Riviera are spot on with how this guy dealt with others...whatever you had that he wanted was just junk but everything he had was made of unobtainium. He definitely didn't look at it the way Highlander does ( "I'd rather sell a dozen cars for a grand or so profit than try to make a "kill" on 1 or 2. The goal is to sell it, not set a new standard in high prices.") He always had the same rebuttal to comments about his overpriced junk "this is what such and such is worth, you can look on online and see what these are bringing!" No, you can look online and see what other fuck-sticks are trying to sell the same shit for, and if you keep looking long enough you will soon memorize all those ads that you continue to see month after month after month of the same shit because it's not selling for that $$$!!! I'm sure everyone on here knows someone like this lol.

 

Interesting thread, most of this comes down to people being too lazy, either too lazy to search for good cars from private owners or too lazy to educate themselves and get the skills to be able to build their own hot rods. As far as dealers or flippers price gouging people, that is the down side of capitalism, its easy to take advantage of unknowledgeable customers its all up to how honest and moral the dealer is.

 

Honesty can be a bitch. In Oct. a guy was looking over my Clipper as it was exactly what he wanted, a CCCA designated "Classic" and a tour car instead of a trailer queen. After about 15 min he starts getting really nit picky. "Jeez, look at this scratch on the windshield post!" "Yup, there's one just like it on the other side. Look really close you're liable to find a couple others." "Are you serious?" "You bet, dead serious. I can tell you this too, at my price and the condition of this car I apologize for none of it. Not 1 single thing." "What kinda shit is that? That paint has to be repaired! I can't drive a car with a scratch in it!" "Sure ya can, we just went for a 5 mile drive." "Well I'd have to paint this whole car." "Your choice buddy. I'd touch it up here and there and put miles on it, but if you do paint it think about all the free body work you get." "Body work isn't free, are you crazy?" "Nope, it doesn't need any body work. Did you find a rust hole? Any major dents? And thick-ass gobs of bondo anywhere? No. So ya see no body work needed is the same as free. Tape it up, sand it and paint it if you wish, but don't think I'm going to give you a dime towards your efforts. Your choice and I'm already right on the money for what I'm offering. Again, no apologies." He did everything he could to try and get me down in price, but why should I? I really wouldn't paint the car. I might touch it up here n there but all over? No way, loses it's creds in my view. It looks like it did when Harrah's had it in the museum, excepting maybe a scratch or 2. I'd rather a guy like that pass on my car because he's liable to shit all over me after he buys it, telling folks what he wants them to hear vs the truth. I truly wouldn't sell him the car if called me this evening and said he'd thought it over. I'd rather see someone who views this car's value the same as I do. I could pile a couple weeks worth of work into it and stay closer to my asking price, but then I've covered up some of what's so nice about it. Yeah, honesty isn't always sweet but it beats lies and bullshit.

 

I recently sold my T roadster here on the HAMB for nearly a thousand less than I told myself I would take. Mostly just had tire kickers and crappy trade offers. A HAMB guy showed up with cash, got a great deal I was fairly satisfied, I knew he dealt hot rods, but damn not even 3 days after he bought it it's now on St Louis CL, $4000 more than I sold it. Am I pissed, no, do I dislike him, no. Was kind of crappy listing it that fast. But in the end, I know it's about making that almighty dollar. I do hate the liars though. I know cars well enough to see through the BS!

 

Missouri has a 72 hour law. You can return a vehicle to seller for any reason within 72hrs excluding Sunday. Dealer or private seller. So if you are willing to fight it, you can get your money back if you buy a turd in Missouri.

 

This is one of the complaints against Gateway Classic Cars that I ran across on the BBB website. This couple paid $85,000 for a 1941 Willys without even driving it. After they bought it they wanted to have some things fixed on the car and when Gateway refused the wife complained to the BBB. I think the term "more money than brains" applies here....

Complaint
We would like to complain about the advertising issues as well as repair issues. I purchased a 1941 Willy's on Monday, September 8, 2014, with $1,000 cash down and paid the remaining balance of $84,000 on Tuesday, September 9, 2014. When I originally looked at the car I wasn't able to hear it run... nor test drive it because they (Gateway Classic Cars) had indicated that they require the "motor" oil be changed in all vehicles they consign and that theydidn't have the correct oil filter yet, so they couldn't start the engine. I expressed my concern on if everything was mechanically sound and I was informed that "Yes, it is, everything is new, that it only had a little over one (1.3) miles on it (also advertised in their description on their website as well as a photo of the gauge showing as well on their website, attached) and that the original owner trailered it everywhere" and that "I could hear it run on the VIDEO they had of it, so they pulled it up on line for me to watch the video and listen to it as they drove it in to their showroom" I replied that" "I really couldn't tell anything by the video as it wasn't really clear, that the laptop doesn't do it justice, but it appeared to be good." They said they had changed the oil 3 weeks prior and had the wrong filter and were waiting on the correct filter and thought it would be in yet that day. I had questioned at that time on if it required a special filter and they said yes and that the original owner actually had his own shop come out and change the oil, that he didn't want Gateway to do that! I asked if I could get the name and phone number of the seller so we could talk with him, that my husband (being a car guy) would want to know allabout the car, at which time I was told that they couldn't provide me with his information due to the privacy act!! But they could send the guy our information and he could call us IF he wanted to talk with us about the car. I asked them to provide the owner with our information, but he did not contact me. Product_Or_Service: 1941 Willy's

Desired Resolution
Reimbursement for repairs

Consumer Business DialogBusiness
Initial Business Response / Gateway Classic Cars has been made aware of this situation some weeks ago. In our efforts to assist the buyer we've contacted the seller of the vehicle and relayed the transmission complaint that the new owner was having. The seller... advised they were not willing to assist in repairs, as the vehicle was in great running and driving condition when they sold it; as seen in the video on our website. There is no way to tell what happened after the point of sale and how it was driven. This being said, while the buyer purchased the vehicle on an AS-IS Where-IS basis, Gateway Classic Cars offered, as a customer curiosity, 200 dollars to the buyer. The offer was refused and is now void. Due to the nature and history of classic cars, Gateway Classic Cars solely advertises inventory based off of seller's unique build and historical information. As a consignment dealer, Gateway Classic Cars has a privacy policy, as where we must keep the seller's information private. Gateway Classic Cars offered to relay the buyer's information to the seller in further efforts to resolve the complaint. After continuous efforts of getting the seller of the vehicle to assist with the complaint, Gateway Classic Cars considers this sale complete and final.

 

Hi Henryj.Loved the clip.Percy Kilbride and Marjory Main as Ma and Pa Kettle.Brings back many good memories from back in the day.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

 

Ryan, thanks for being the rebel that you are! And that you saw an ox that needed to be gored. I think what gets under my skin is when the love of the almighty dollar tramples the love of the old car and making a buck justifies treating others badly because they may not be educated in every aspect of what they are buying. Especially when it concerns the collector car dealers, resellers and flippers that are only in it for the money and nothing else. The last 10 years has seen it change for the worse, especially when you see the reality hot rod and collector car TV shows that make their main focus on flipping cars and making a big bucks. I have met lots of guys that want you to believe they feel the same way as I do and that they want to be your best friend until they find out you won't sell them anything, then they disappear. I have no problem with buying and selling to build your collection and finance it but when making money is the only goal for you, it changes the way you think about old cars. Sometimes I chuckle when I hear guys lament how they sold all the good ones and can't find anything good anymore for themselves. The Corvette market has been totally distorted by this and its been taken over by the dealers and resellers. I guess I'm a romantic that believes in the love for old cars rather than being a pimp for them.

 

Ryan,

In my opinion, you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a supercilious, narcissistic, undereducated and often erroneous blowhard!

The HAMB is a far more pleasant forum when you aren't posting your half baked bullshit.
It is clear you fancy yourself as some sort of aspiring literary talent....my advice, don't quit your day job.

As for subsequent posters, who complain someone "is only doing it for the money".....get real. Go stand in front of a mirror and you will see another person who does SOMETHING "only for the money". Unless you are a trust fund recipient, you probably try to make a living and maximize your earnings in the process. It is possible to do that and NOT lie, cheat and steal in that pursuit. But it is also not realistic, or necessary, to sell your product or services below market value in some misplaced allegiance to a 'hobby'.

Ray

 

I don't mind Classic Car Dealers. I don't know why, but I don't.


The thing that gets me are these damn auctions.

 

Harsh much? There may be some level of sincerity in your reply but it's almost completely overshadowed by opinionated emotion, which rinses credibility away fairly quick.

 

^^I agree^^

 

Metalman, Buying a project and finishing it, is adding value. There are few of us who are wiling and skilled enough to turn a project into a beautiful and functional classic, and we deserve to be paid for our efforts.
I think Ryan is complaining about those who broker, or buy a car, do NOTHING to it, and sell it on for much more than a fair price. These are the "inefficient middlemen" and I agree that they drag our economy down by creating a classic car bubble - similar to the housing bubble we're all so familiar with.

 

I recently concluded a transaction on Craigslist for a car I bought for 550.00. It needed a radiator, tires and wheels, a front bumper, paint, and a few other minor things. I fixed it enough to make it a reliable driver, and sold it on for 1300.00. I made a small profit, and added a car to the economy which wasn't usable until I worked my "magic" on it. I figure someone who does this type of thing is adding value as Ryan has said.

 

......................Amazing as it may seem to you, there are folks who actually make a living and still contribute in a positive way to the world we live in. I'm pretty sure they don't do it only for the money. Then there are people who make a living by simply adhering to the mantra of "How can I get over on the next poor soul that comes along".

 

OK, I'm curious. What do you have against auctions? Especially since you don't mind dealers.

 

Unbelievable, just fucking unbelievable. Stunning. Sad. Oh, and WRONG!

 

OK fellas, lets get back to Traditional Hot Rods. Enough of the drama and personal attacks or I'm going to have to shut this one down. Hot Damn, I always wanted to say that.

 

I should have been more specific. The TV auctions are what get me.

A bunch of people impressed with how much money each other can spend on matching number muscle cars and "resto-rods". That's fine and all. To each is their own.

They don't focus on the work, or man hours, or materials it takes to get a lot of those high dollar cars through the auction block.

All you see is a boring car with a huge price tag and a lot of high fiving going on.

That's great and all...but it drives the market on projects and parts way up.

The same can be said about Classic Car Dealers, but they just have less of an impact. They tend to do things behind closed doors. It seems like now days there is an auction running on national TV 24/7.

 

How are my opinions any more harsh than those you expressed about a broad category of businesses that, like any other, have good guys and some bad guys? "Bad guys" not being defined by making a profit, but by dishonesty in representation of goods.

Your stated position not only smacks of a moral judgment about profit making, but totally ignores Economics 101 as applied in a free society. And some further posters certainly implied, if not outright stated, that people who find a good deal on a collector car, if they sell it, should resell it for a pittance just to 'support the hobby'.....in other words, operate as charities, I guess. If you found a good deal on a car and are selling to a good friend and want to give him/her a good deal..great! But if you do that for all comers, I submit that at least some of your buyers are going to immediately resell the car and harvest the profit you left on the table.

I am aware some dealers ask seemingly astronomical amounts for the cars they sell. So do home sellers and jewelry merchants and so on. If there are no people willing to pay those prices the merchandise goes unsold. But, in some cases, there are people who think those items are worth the asking price. Free markets best serve a population, no matter the nature of the goods or services supplied. Controlled market prices always lead to shortages, whether bread, milk, living quarters or collector cars.

Further, the profit is not 'lost to the economy'...unless the profiteer hoards the money and does not spend any of it. But they will spend it....and it recirculates for other goods. That provides jobs for a whole slew of people and industries and keeps the economy humming.

You don't like collector car dealers in general...we get that and got that, some time ago already.....so what? Sure, it's your forum and you can opine as you see fit. But unless you expect blind adulation, some blow back should be expected and accepted.

Ray

 

Guess you would rather watch flippers (dealers) on TV beating up a seller, doing some lame redo and selling for big money and bragging about it? Plenty of those shows too.
I guess I do see what your saying. I also take it you haven't been to one of these auctions in person. You would probably have a different idea about them. Hang out talking to the car owners, checking out their cars. Might not focus on the work involved on TV but they sure do on the floor. I enjoy showing off my hard work, enjoy the compliments I get and the resulting hammer price I get for my efforts, as well as supporting other builders and their efforts. I don't get that when I drop one of my cars at a dealer.
They may call it "reality" TV but ....nothing real about any of them IMHO.
I don't see why everyone thinks the auctions are driving the market. I think they just represent where the current market is at. I had a nice meeting with a marketing guy at a large classic car dealership just last month, we were talking about current and future trends in the market, I was picking his brain to figure out what I should be building. He was basing the market on demographics, age groups that have the most expendable cash and what they want right now, not what is selling at auctions. The auctions as well as his dealership sales just support his ideas, not the other way around.

 

Man, I thought the Holidays were over!

 

I'm not completely sold on the exploits of bloodsucking classic car dealers. I, as a general rule, stay away from their lots or ads. I have however, looked at their inventory because not everything they have is junk. May be ridiculously overpriced, but some of it is good iron. I have always lived by the economic principle of supply and demand. I knew when I went out to buy a decent 34 , I would have to slap leather. It's the price you pay when you play this game. It doesn't matter what brand or what model car or truck that is for sale, its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. You want what every body else wants, then get ready to pay more. ALL dealers know this and it doesn't just apply to our classic cars. Go price a new or late model diesel truck if you don't believe it. The only way Ryan, that we as a group can stop playing the game , is to stop paying the premium. As a buyer, patience and diligence will prevail, but an unscrupulous dealer will feed on impatience every time. Lots of good opinions so far.

 

A few of you guys,Ryan too,need to lay off the sauce for a while..or call it "loose mouth" if you prefer