Folks Of Interest Fear & Loathing The Classic Car Dealer: Part 2

I read a bit of part one, and most of part two of this subject, with interest.
My first job outer school, was working as a detailer for the local Ford dealerships, used car department.
Not the same as classic cars, but figure I'll add my bit, as it's takin a few hours to read this.
My boss, was a well liked local ex cop. I was an innocent 18 yr old kid.
If a car came in, that needed work, my boss would have our mechanics, body shop or sparky fix what was needed.
So maybe you could say he was giving back, but I also watched as he happily openly ripped people off. It shocked me, when he ripped his friends, then laughed to me about it.
Last year, he came to visit me, about two months before he died.
He was quite sick, but I Think he got a kick outer seeing my Hot Rod.
He was a good guy, a little dishonest, but likeable. Over the years, I'd forgotten that, and was glad he came to see me, and make me remember that I did actually like him, before I had quit.

So did he give back?
He certainly made sure the cars were sold in better condition than when they came in. He made sure I did my job properly, and it's stuck with me since. I always keep my cars tidy.
Sure he was out to make a buck, would openly rip people, and not give a Fuck once he had their cash.
I learned a lot from him.

I once read that on a scale of one to ten, as to job integrity, one being the worst, ten the most well thought of, Doctors etc, that one included car salesmen, and panel beaters.

What has this got to do with classic car dealers not giving back?
Feck all.

Happy new year Hambers.

 

...................Far too many have nothing more than a website.

 

I have bought cars I liked, but nobody else, for cheap, fixed them up, sold them to finance my next project. After a while I worked my way up to the cars I'll keep forever. I have had low ball dealer offers for some cars I tried to sell, but I 'd rather give a friend or a young guy a good deal on a good car I fixed than take a low ball dealer offer just to see it up for sale for twice his offer a day later. Adding value is what I live by. I cut hair for a living and I build cars when I don cut hair . If I screw up I think I deserve not to get paid,this keeps me learning my lessons, my motivation up and things in perspective. I agree when Ryan doesn't see where there is a point in just lowballing one guy to highball the next one a day later without contributing anything (service, improvements, repairs). But I think that's simply our system. The overall design of the capitalism is a good thing, but it has some flaws and leaves some blanks that can easily be filled with dishonesty, greed and bad behavior. Lots of guys will screw the other guy to make a dollar more. And the higher the possible profits are, the better is the chance to find dishonesty. Brokers, banks, COE s, lawyers, car dealers, everyone that is in a position to make a lot of bucks in a short period of time is prone to this. A guy who is selling his work hours can sell a max of 24hours a day. A guy that does good marketing can sell almost any amount of anything at a profit x in the same amount of time. That is not a bad thing by itself, but it is a must in my believe to have a positive effect to all party's involved,not only the seller's. .. Maybe I m just a dreamer, but that is what I live by. And I'm living well that way.

 

Simple answer is this
You buy sight unseen You are just begging for.. and will... get a screwing
You pay to have a pre purchase inspection and evaluation of real condition then you decide how much you are willing to pay--after that shut up--it is on you
I buy sight unseen on Ebay and Amazon when I am buying JB WELD or any product that is new and of an understood condition--that is OK but the very idea of buying a vehicle without an inspection proves you are just a mark
WHY CAN"T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT and thus protect themselves.

I have bought and sold a lot of cars---I consider myself an honest guy but I 'll be damned if I am going to tell a lady looking at a 65 Mustang that I took a 6 ft black snake out from under the dash when I got it home and was washing it
I will tell her to feel free to have the car inspected at her cost and then get back to me with an offer
I sleep like a fat baby!

Hey! They put pig azz holes in hot dogs too but nobody thinks that is dishonest

 

Well, it's a damn interesting read on New Year's Eve morning, I will say that. Throwing middlemen under the bus is an extremely slippery slope, but Ryan understands business too well (MBA, folks) to want to do that.

Jocko - man, I love reading your posts, well said!

Ryan - you might ought to have better qualified your dealer classification, e.g. "Unethical classic car dealers" or some such, because simply flipping any consumer good for a profit is, well, it is, umm, it is as American as apple pie. The salient point here is not "the act of flipping", it is "the act of price gouging". So, dealers flip. Good dealers flip for a reasonable profit margin. Bad dealers flip for unreasonably high margins. How do we know the difference? The market sets the retail price. Surely you do not mean to say that a dealer, or any private flipper of a consumer good, must make some material improvement to the "good", in order to justify the flip? I have a hard time believing this is what you want to say, but I have read and re-read your post, and this is what it seems to say. This is what Jocko and some others find hard to digest - Jocko please correct me if I am wrong.

Hey! Beats anything you can read in today's news.

 

Wow, finally the subject comes up again. Buying off the internet sight unseen is purely insane. Spend the couple of hundred bucks and have an Independent Appraiser do his thing. In my experience 7 out of 10 appraisals I have completed for the new owner for insurance purposes , the car was not as described in the ads. Remember also when it arrives you own it Good or BAD.

 

I try not to buy from dealers unless I find just exactly what I want at MY PRICE, not theirs. When I buy a vehicle, I know what I want beforehand, what I want to pay, and what I will accept condition wise. I have bought a lots of vehicles over the years, drove them, then sold them for a profit, and I have sold them at a loss to get rid of them. About the only time I shop dealers is when I want to trade a vehicle or finance one. I've dealt with Craigslist flakes who misrepresent what they have, and have bought several off there that were better than described, you just have to take your time and do your homework. I will not buy anything from a classic car dealer, their prices don't fit my budget, they usually don't know any true history on a car, and new paint can cover up many sins. I'd rather buy something in old original paint or primer that you can see the flaws in than a slicked up possible hack job. Not saying all fresh painted cars are hack jobs, there are plenty of fresh builds that are fine, you just have to know the source of the work done, from mechanical to paint, there are a lot of crooks out there. We've all heard tales of the used car sales places putting sawdust in transmissions and differentials, gear oil in engines, filling radiators with stop leak, rebuilding rusted out places with Bondo and newspaper and screen wire. There have always been shady operators out there, always will be. They prey on the emotional side, you see something you just love and can't live without. That's why you have to be careful dealing with people you don't know, some will try to screw you. I don't get emotional over vehicles anymore, no matter how bad I want it. I check it over thoroughly, and even then still miss stuff sometimes. Then, and only after I am satisfied I am interested, I start dealing. If the seller is way off on price, I walk. I have gotten screwed in times past by letting my emotions override my common sense. I learned the hard way there are always more cars out there, you just have to wait on the right one. I prefer to deal with owners over dealers, no matter what I'm buying, old or daily driver vehicles. Most owners will be fairly truthful, but I don't expect them to point out any problems, that's my job to find them and deal accordingly.

 

Hi all, In most cases the cars I have purchased over the years came from dealers lots. I know my way around vehicles as I have worked most of my life in the automotive industry, assembling cars and trucks. I have never had a bad experience with a dealership to date. I am now 62 years old. The 1 bad experience I had, was from a friend. How bout that !
Education is the key. If the vehicle that you wish to purchase is not within driving distance, find someone you know who can view it for you and make informed decisions on your behalf. Education, the tools are at your finger tips.
On a side note....Bobwop, do you still have that 54 Olds with the 4 gear in it????
What a car that one is ....why ...I would give up just about.......ooops here comes my wife,
Your friend Trevor Calhoun.

 

Being this thread is about buying collector cars from dealers and middlemen, I'd like to recount what happened when I saw a car I was interested in at Gateway Classic cars who deal with consignment sales. It was a decent car but over priced by about $4,000. I told the salesman I'd offer $4000 less then the asking price. He refused to discuss my offer with the owner and wanted my credit card information for a $1000 deposit. I told him I don't give deposits on cars I haven't seen. I later read online that deposits are non refundable. No way I'd ever deal with Gateway. Their salesman was a real slime ball.

Gary

 

I don't understand the Gateway deal. I'm not giving anybody $1000 non-refundable, for a car I haven't seen and that they don't actually have. That seems insane to me.

BamaMav has it right. Decide what you want, do the research to determine what you're willing to pay for it, in the condition you're looking for. Learn where the common problem areas are, so you know where to look. Examine it, or have somebody examine if for you. Only then start negotiations on the price. Be prepared to walk away. Once you've bought it, it's yours, good or bad. The information is available, not making use of it will cost you.


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This is one of those age-old questions, for which there is no answer.

So you say Ryan says "All car-sellers are assholes". Wait a minute. Ryan sold a car to me. He must be an asshole, but he didn't really seem like an asshole. . .

It reminds me of the old sci-fi episode. The robot says it must destroy all things illogical. The captain tells the robot "killing is illogical, therefore the killer must be illogical. You are illogical ". The robot self-distructs.

I have often wondered if Ryan might be a robot. Stay cool Ryan. Wait, what if I'm a robot? . . . Oh shit. . .


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This certainly been an interesting read. OK, I'm a flipper. Maybe one of the good ones I hope(?), I generally buy a project car that for what ever reason the owner is bailing on, maybe financial problems, maybe lost interest. Anyway, I finish them and then sell them. Plain and simple I pay a "middleman" to sell my cars, I have to. Why? I have no local market so I have to sell to out of towners. Ebay doesn't work for me, I've tried but have never gotten offered even close to market price, besides technically Ebay is a middle man anyway, they get their cut. For the last few years my middle men had names like Jackson or Mecum, recently I've been consigning to a large classic car dealer in Texas. Sure, I hate giving them a cut of my profit but then it's proved to be the best way for me to get as good of a price as I can. They maximize my profit, they have value to me. Do I think it's stupid that people pay anywhere from 12 to 25% more for my car then I'd sell it for myself, yes I do. Bottom line, they do and as far as I know they seem to be happy doing it, otherwise the auctions and dealers wouldn't exist so I guess they must have value to the buyer as well. For what it's worth, I also realize the people I consign to have an investment in my car as well, it takes money to put on those auctions or to pay overhead on a dealership.
Not to say I don't understand what Ryan is saying. Hanging out at the auctions I've met a whole bunch of "classic car" dealers. Some are truly good people and I've become friends with. Have no dought though, there are a lot of real slimballs out there selling crap that they misrepresent, taking advantage of the uninformed buyer and making really an unfair profit. But really, slimmy car dealers, haven't they been around since the advent of cars?

 

This whole thread is about religion or politics as those are the only things that define rules,ethics or morals. The only other way to look at it is everyone's own personal opinion and that would be an endless debate with no positive outcome. This is not a perfect world and we all have no choice but to learn to deal with all of the diversity or be miserable trying to change the unchangeable.

 

brerhair you didn't miss much, and while the core point probably isn't 100% what it seems it's there. I too don't think the main focus was that we middlemen are total fucks and add nothing, yet all of us have met that species. Usually we find out they came from another line and only have passion for the "kill", closing at the highest possible personal profit above all else. At the same time, just because I have true interest in the stuff it's not what makes me (IMO) one of the "good guys". The only way to stay off the radar that our fearless leader monitors is maintain the focus on your own good standards and reputation. Yeah, even that can be carried too far. That's that egomaniac who thinks because he's selling it it's worth a premium over market. It's impossible to label an agent as a bottom feeder just because he makes $$$$$ selling something that's not his. Some guys can't negotiate a drive-thru window let alone the purchase or sale of a serious car. leaving it to experience is quite efficent indeed.

 

It seems to me Ryan is talking about two different animals. In his example, we have a dealer who has possession of a car and is listing it for $19,000. Fair enough. Then we have an online broker representing the car as his possession and tacking on another $7,500—and fabricating information about it to jack the perceived value.

I don’t have a problem with a dealer who buys a car to resell. The act of finding a car and bringing it to market adds value in and of itself.

The broker, on other hand, is not adding value, because the car is already on the market at a better price. However, the broker exists because the market is inefficient.

In an efficient online market, the dealer would easily find a buyer on his own without a broker. Of course, if it were even MORE efficient, the original seller could have found the end-buyer on his own without the dealer in the first place.

The only way to combat this is educated buyers. But in the car business, buyers get their education in the School of Hard Knocks. Heck, the mistakes I made in getting my degree would circle the block, parked end-to-end.

 

No one can be an expert in all areas. Be it buying a car, a house, financial planning or the dental work mentioned. The "middle man" provides the service of knowledge and convenience. Sometimes this has value sometime not. Ultimately it's up to you, the consumer, to determine value for the service you receive. If the price is too high or you don't trust the middle man, you can walk away.

 

Exactly
The thing I don't get is this:
Why is it that people (generally) have to put out time, energy, research, etc. to get paid for their particular station in life but won't do the same before handing money over to someone else, they'll put in more energy going on the internet grousing about this or that guy "screwing them" after the fact than using that energy to be an informed consumer.

 

Go back to page 2 of this thread and read post #41 to see how Gateway cheated an 88 year old Vietnam veteran out of $3k....

 

Some dealers find old cars and fix them up. Some just flip them at a higher price.

It's easy to see the value added with the fixers. But if the flippers hadn't advertised, the buyer wouldn't have found the car. Usually, the flippers, who do it for a living, have honed their advertising, selling, scrounging and buying skills and knowledge far beyond what a seller is willing or able to do for an occasional sale.

Here's a real life example.

I found a 1941 Mercury 4 door at an estate sale. It was hidden in a shed about an eighth mile from the heir's house. It was complete but had set for decades. The heir wanted to give it away but the recipient had to promise to spend $50,000 to restore it just the way he remembers it when his grandfather drove it and give him a ride when finished in about a year. He didn't want it parted out or languishing in someone's garage for years.

A similar car, totally restored, was selling at a classic car dealer for $18,500.

Because I'm a terrible salesman, I couldn't convince him that $50,000 was unreasonable.

Because he's a terrible seller, no one knew about the car except those who attended the estate sale AND happened to ask if there were any old cars for sale. It was not visible to those picking through the house. This guy needs a flipper. I need a flipper. I'd gladly pay someone to convince him to give it up so I can buy it. But that flipper isn't going to go to all that effort and time for free.

So, IMHO, flippers are not bad. Selling, negotiating and being persuasive are valuable traits. However, Dishonest flippers are bad. Used car dealers aren't bad, dishonest used car dealers are. <Insert occupation here> aren't bad, dishonest <insert occupation here> are.

Here's my entry into the, "Sitting and Rotting.............picture thread."

 

A good example of "middlemen" who provide no service other than to line their own pockets is the "speculators" who make fortunes off us by manipulating the oil market. I think this is the type of leeches Ryan is referring to.

 

I had a call from Gateway Motors recently , a lady called me regarding my Ford for Sale at first she was nice as a Peach and when I told her I was not interested she got hostile and told me off? I have no idea what provoked her to be "un-civilized" and start cursing.

 

...................Convenience maybe....knowledge, not always.

 

Now I know why I hate Realtors....

 

Truly. I know used car dealers have a bad rep but I've ran into just as many slimmy realtors, tell you anything true or not to make a sale. A while back there was an open house down the street. My Dad had built the house back in 49 and it is identical to the house he built that I live in today so I went and looked. The realtor didn't like it when I questioned why it was listed 200 sq. ft. bigger then my house is when they are identical! They sell by the sq. ft. but I'm sure it was an "honest" mistake.

 

Get over it Ryan. Life is too short.

 

A seller can say no and a buyer can walk......I laugh when at a new car dealer or a real estate open house the salesman will ask "how much do you want to spend?" My response is always "little as possible" and they have a puzzled look on their face......

 

I don't worry about brokers because I don't have the money for a 'high-end' broker selling vehicle
In fact checking I can't afford to buy the junk I have in the backyard now

 

I can get behind Highlander on his response. Well written and thought out. Making a large or small profit is dictated when you buy, not when you sell. No crime in what you make for what the market will bear. There are good and bad dealers and any other occupational own r or worker in every industry. Educate yourself, look for references, and go make your best deal!


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The thing I don't like about realtor fees. It's not that they don't market and rep the property and incur the expense, it's not the 6%. It's the fact I pay property tax on that fuckin 6% for the rest of my days living there! I actually argued the point at the annual tax tribunal, why I have to pay property tax on $12K from now on (house was $200K). "You're looking at me like I'm stupid, but it's the terms that are stupid. I don't pay sales tax for the commission at an auction, right?" "Did you buy your house at an auction?" After 20 min of explaination and example I ended leaving telling him, "...and at least we know who the stupid one is in this discussion." Think about it, does your state take away the realtor's fee on the tax role? I bet not...

 

funny MATH