Technical Reds headers quality?

hello,

I just received my set of reds headers and downpipes for my shoebox. I have to say, it seems like the design and quality is pretty sub par. I come from the world of small and big block OHV ford and Chevys and have experienced headers from many different manufacturers. A couple things that seems a little off are #1, although TIG welded, it seems that the welds were don't as quickly and haphazardly as possible. The beads aren't very consistent and the mounting flanges where all the stress are, are internally welded on the very ends of the pipe with 2 tiny tacks on the outside. This is obviously going to be a failure point, so I'm going to full weld the outside prior to installing.

Secondly, the center pipe by the steering box it almost completely pinched off. I know that this is a tight area, but the point of headers is for increased flow. With such a restrictive exhaust design in the heads, I'd like to see a little more effort for free flow instead of the simple "make it fit" mojo. It is possible to fit a better bend in there.

Third, the downpipes that reds sell hang the exhaust under the factory cross member, rather than through the factory hole in the crossmember. I know that some people don't want to drill the crossmember for the driver's side pipe, but the loss of ground clearance seems dumb when there's already a hole in one side. Also, they bend one side to need an offset (read: bent) muffler, while the other side doesn't. It just doesn't seem logical to me. When you have the chance to fabricate an exhaust system from scratch, it gives you the one chance to do it right, not simply, good enough.


Lastly, they ship their headers raw. Obviously requiring some coating to preserve the pipe. Well, I appreciate the fancy logo that they welded to the pipe that says "reds headers", but how do they suppose you coat under it so it doesn't rust? Basically, I have to cut the logos off to paint the pipes, so I'm surely not going to put them back on. It seems as though a quick little tab welded to the back of the logos and hose clamp thrown in the package would have solved this problem?


I guess I just feel like without much, if any added cost, just a little added thought, these headers could have been a home run when they only wanted a walk. Anyone else feel this way?

 

I installed Reds Headers on my 49 Shoebox and was quite satisfied. This was done about 8 years ago. Maybe QC has gone down.

 

Welded only on the inside a obvious failure point? Have to disagree with that statement. This has been done for Many, Many years and there is nothing wrong with it. I have been building headers for a couple of major Headers companies for over 20 years, plus custom headers for at least 15 before that. I just recoated a set that we built in 1975 that were only welded on the inside, full long tubes on an SBC and they were fine, just a bit rusty after 41 years.
I don't presume to speak for them, but I think Red;'s designs are based on 50 year old designs. They are trying to keep them very tradition looking. So while they may be a little "Crude" compared to a modern Race quality header, I think that they are trying to maintain some heritage there.
Just my opinion.
Oh, and as for rusting under the badge? EVERY brand of header on the market welds their badge on before painting or coating their headers - I know for a fact that this is true with Hooker, Doug's, JBA, Kooks, Hedman, Sanderson, and so on. Never been a problem that I know of. We certainly have never had a warranty issue for it.

 

Hi nevrDUN,

got some pictures?

 

This is why posted this. I come from a background where headers are full welded to the flanges. Sometimes for turbo applications, sometimes for stress. I don't typically buy the large market, mass produced headers like headman or hooker, as they don't seem to back up all the claims. Check out the header bash test on YouTube that hotrod engine masters did. I just guess I felt wierd when I saw that someone went through the trouble to TIG weld them, but didn't seem to put much effort in during the process. TIG welding give the opportunity through process to produce a very even, beautiful weld. It doesn't take any longer to make a nice, even, structural weld than it does to make a sloppy one. BUT, my lack of experience with the interior-only welding process at the flanges may be making me nervous for no reason. I was merely voicing my observations from past experience with headers and 3 years as a certified welding inspector. I do feel that on the shoebox, header strength is very important because the entire exhaust system is rigid and hung by only 4 rubber hangers with several feet between the engine and first hanger. I will be reinforcing the flange area prior to painting.

A certain point that should be made is that I plan to put in upwards of 10,000 miles a year on this car. I'm approaching this from an OEM quality standpoint. I may need to approach this from a "designed for a weekend hot rodder" standpoint and it will all make more sense. I tend to be highly critical of fabrications because coming from a dealership combined with quality control background x-raying welds, longevity is always paramount and only equaled by function. No one cares if a gas line is pretty, only that it flows and doesn't leak, for a loooon time.

 

Again, I don't speak for Red's. but I think perfect TIG welds would look out of place on a part that is supposed to look like it was made 50 years ago. In fact I thought theirs were gas welded to be honest. It's a fine line we wlak in this "Traditional" world. LOL
As for strength - the weakest part of the header to flange joint is Not the weld (if welded properly) but rather the tubing itself. I have seen header tubes break that are welded on the outside form the weight of turbos or improperly suspended exhaust systems more than a few times, and it is ALWAYS right next to the weld. There is more chance of undercutting the tubing with the weld on the outside than when flush welding it on the inside. When I build race headers that will see a lot of abuse, like an off road car or Rally Car, I weld them on the inside and then cut pieces of tubing about an inch wide by 1 1/2" long and make Gussets from the flange to the tube, that helps support the tube Away from the flange.
All Older cars (and many new ones) have "Rigid" exhaust systems with a minimal amount of hangars. This is standard and not exclusive to shoebox Ford's. The entire exhaust system is designed to move slightly with the movement of the engine. Flex pipes are a fairly new concept and are more common on imports and some GM Trucks/SUV's.
Just my thoughts and experience from 35 years of dealing with header fab.

 

Listen I want to make clear that I am seeking your opinions and appreciate all of your input. I've only been doing this for around 12 years and have a very small cross section of experience in the aftermarket antique world. I have to admit, I'm quite well versed in 4 cam v8's from my dealership days. I guess what I unboxed just shocked me a bit from what I'm used to seeing. I'm still going to do some reinforcing and remove the reds plates so that I can properly coat the headers. I'm also still going to either bend the downpipes to properly run through the crossmember and to line up with straight glasspacks, or I'm simply going to toss them in the recycle bin and use my local custom exhaust shop to bend them the right way. Also, no matter what, that is my eventual goal as the Reds pipes go from 1 3/4 at the header to a 2" muffler back to either a 1 3/4 or 1 1/2" at the tailpipe. I think 2" all the way seems to make a whole bunch more sense.

 

I'd also like to make a point, GM offered a 3 year 36,000 warranty on cars back when they made exhausts like this and you'd often have replaced an exhaust part by the time that warranty was up. Fast forwArd 35 years of learning and progress and exhausts last now many many times as long as they did. Often times well over 150,000 driven miles. To me, it seems, if you're going traditional, you'd go with a reproduction cast police style left header or MAYBE a set of Fenton Manifolds, but reds wouldn't be the choice. Reds are a nice way to put a dual exhaust on your flattie while hopefully making some power. They don't seem to market themselves as a purist traditional type shop.

 

So here are the headers, if this is completely normal, them I'm an idiot. I never expected this was what I would receive. I would never expect this to last, and judging by those two thoughts, I'm sadly mistaken. I really probably have unrealistic expectations of American quality nowadays.

 

I see what you're saying about restriction. That is a very pinched pipe. The others flow nicely around the bend, I'll agree it looks like a case of good enough!

 

Wow !! .. The punched in pipe in the bottom photo seems to negate any advantage to having headers. I think I would have just sent them back and made my own.

 

Once I fit them to the car, I plan to cut out the outside radius and fit something more gradual. I just need to see how much clearance I have. This is kind of a bonsai run as I'm waiting to have a motor built and can't really build stuff without the motor in the car. So I ordered these to get the car on the road and get the rest of it sorted out. Then, this winter I can make the proper headers and downpipes to run a factory appearing exhaust that performs.

 

Tubular headers were available at the same era as Fenton's, and the early ones were basic logs like the Red's. Whether or not they market them as such is not for me to speculate. I just think that is the style that they have decided to do. certainly not a design for ultimate power, no argument there. I would like to see the fitment to know if that radical pinch is necessary or not, my guess is the steeering box/shaft is right there. I understand your disappointment but They also are a Cheap header, at only $200 you can't expect them to be like one of our Doug's premium headers that sell for $800.
The biggest improvement in facotory exhaust came from material cahnges. Up through at least the early 70's exhaust were made from Raw mild steel, they would start rusting within weeks and would be shot within a few years. Many fuller shop owners made a lot of money sue to this. Then came aluminized tubing, much better, but still didn't last "A lifetime". Now the current trend with many OE's is 409SS. Although it will take on a Rusty Appearance, it really just oxidizes the surface and in many instances will last the life of the vehicle, even though it may look like crap. Muffler coatings also improved during this time and again last much longer. Some of the more expensive cars use 304SS, although not many and a few still use a form of Aluminized.

 

When red's was in nor-cal everything was crush bent , and wire welded , they worked and fit ok , but a bit crude for the money i alway thought ...since they moved to so-cal most of them seem to be mandrel bent and tig welded... Their location and production change made me think maybe they are having some of the work farmed out perhaps ? They still look a little crude for the money I feel ... But worlds ahead of where they were

That funny crushed piece does look like something slipped past the QC guy... I've seen lots of reds headers... But nothing quite that bad..

 

I hadn't called them, however I ordered them directly from the gentleman who owns the place on the phone and he was the one who packed them up. So if he had a problem with the quality of his product, I'm sure he would do something. This wasn't an Internet site sale or anything. I called reds directly.

 

Send those back and build your own. Gotta be one of the easiest cars to build headers for, make what you really want and weld to your own satisfaction. Find a YouTube video if you don't know how to do it.

 

Sending them back will only cost me money. $35 to ship them to me, $35 to ship them back. No way. I need something to get the exhaust out of the motor to at least behind the doors while I'm breaking in the motor and shaking down the new setup. Then this winter when I have time, I'll fab up a nice set.

 

Being welded inside the flange is correct. I do think the TIG welding is acceptable for a production part. That crushed pipe would have me calling the manufacturer though.

 

Those "headers" don't really seem to be much more than tubular exhaust manifolds reminiscent of flathead headers; are there cast iron exhaust manifolds that would fit your application? If so, I think I'd go that route before the headers you have; refund time. JMO! Those crazy guys from ROADKILL did a comparison study on headers being beaten up to fit with an engine on a dyno. They beat the bejesus out of headers with very little, if any effect on performance. It may be a YouTube.Com edition if you'd care to search it. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

If you're not satisfied with the product, including the pinched tube, Reds should pony up for the return ride, with no cost to you.

 

That pinched center pipe scavenges gases thru the block from TWO cylinders.
Now, doesn't it make sense to restrict the avenue with the most traffic?

That's what the road engineers do here in Calif.....

 

I tried buying one for my banger about a year ago and was put on waiting list...waited several months and finally called and he told me his welders had all quit and was looking for welders...he offered to sell me all the parts for me to weld up myself, which I would have done, but went with Yapp Bi/Ys instead...don't know the quality but the fact that he was having issues with keeping welders may be why yours are a little suspect in this area. Other than that he seemed like a personable guy over the phone. FWIW Ron

 

dyno bashing headers and HP loss

 

I used to work for Hooker Headers and we did something similar with no less than Grumpy Jenkins operating the Dyno, probably 30 years ago. If the header were the right size or oversized it made little to no difference When dents were put in them (none of those tubes are pinched off) If the header was of marginal size to start with, or too small it made a very noticeable difference. There's more to the story than those Bozo's showed or talked about. Typical Roadkill Nonsene.

 

The headers on my roadster came from REDS and did not fit very well. I called Jim at Reds and he took full responsibility and had me send them back to be reworked. It took a number of times and they paid for all shipping costs, The end result was VERY nice. This is a standup company if you talk to them.
Walter

 

i called 3 Reds years ago ,got almost the same story except that he fired the all the help.i went with speedway and modified them to fit my flatty..

 

I have them on my '30 Model "A" Pickup....love them. Very nice quality and fit etc.

 

No experience with Reds, just want to point out that the pinched tube that looked very bad to me in the one photo, upon closer look is not as bad as I initially thought. If I'm looking at the same tube here, it is not pinched all the way across the inside radius as the bottom photo may make it appear. Whether it's a required thing or enough to affect the two cylinders it services I wouldn't know.

 

That pipe is DEFINITELY pinched. I'm about to head out to work on them, so I'll post pics of the improvement when I'm done.