History So, you think this is not Traditional?

How about a T with a SBC, a fiberglass body, and a Corvette IRS?
Reading this at hotrod.com and it struck me that we need to be ever mindful of the upper limits of what is truly traditional. If we accept the Boss' definition of 1965 as the upper limit, then we must accept that certain things which seem to mostly be regarded, on this site, as non-traditional, are, in fact, truly traditional.
How many of you think sticking a Corvette IRS on your home-built T is traditional?
Or how about buying a fiberglass body for that home-built T? Is that traditional?
You bet your ass that is traditional, and as Exhibit A, I give you Jeff Wasserman's 1915 T that he built in Southern California between 1961-64. Check it out here http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured...lt-by-a-kid-in-the-60s-guess-who-owns-it-now/

OK, OK, I know (and this is very important) . . . this does NOT mean that sticking a post-1965 Corvette IRS in your hotrod is traditional. It most certainly is not. Nor does it mean that using a post-1965 SBC is traditional, it is not. The upper limit of 1965 is a golden rule for the definition of traditional, according to the HAMB. And there is no better or more respected definition of "traditional hotrod" than the HAMB's (let's be frank . . . than Ryan's definition). I mean, come on you naysayers, you must draw the line somewhere. And that is the point of this thread, to reaffirm and to re-state what us Old School Hambers already know . . . if it is post-1965, it ain't traditional.

Just thought it might not hurt to throw this out on the board now, given that the "Is hot rodding dying?" thread has recently taken up the age-old discussion of just what is hot-rodding, and more specifically, what is traditional hot-rodding.

 

Even Ryan's definition is somewhat flexible. The cut-off was (and probably should be) 1963... pre-Mustang, and pre-muscle car era. When I bought the HAMB Bomb in 2004(?) it was a 1965 Econoline pickup and there was conversation about whether or not it should be 'allowed' to be called traditional or not, and whether I'd be able to run at the HAMB Drags (moot point, but that's another story). Consensus at that time was since it was the same body style as '63 it would be allowed. It wasn't until Ryan bought his kick-ass '65 Rivi that the rules got changed.

None of this really matters (and Ryan can do whatever the hell he wants IMO). The HAMB was a helluva lot more interesting and fun when it wasn't so tightly focused, and we've lost a lot of good people because of it. Times change, people move on, I get it.

Traditional is building whatever you could, influenced/limited by skill, experience, finances, location, parts availability and level of passion. All of which is different for everyone, and a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

 

Missed by that much

 

Haha! That's what I get for reading it at 6am. So, there you have it, this Corvette IRS is not traditional.

Again, my point is this: as time goes by I realize more and more just how important it is that a fairly inflexible definition of "traditional" exist. Go to a big show and the coolest hotrods, in general, will be the ones aspiring to the traditional definition - at least outwardly. Lord knows, those of us who were aware of what was going on in the early-to-mid '60s are the ones who best understand that an upper limit (1965) is completely arbitrary, we understand that a bitching hotrod built in 1968 can be just as cool (or cooler) than one built in 1961 or 1955 or whatever. Back in the day, the clock did not stop at 1965, the dynamic world of hot rodding kept growing.
It is only with the benefit of hindsight that we can see that Ryan is correct in asserting that the muscle car era really did change everything, and it is historically convenient (and accurate) to draw the line and separate "what came before muscle cars" from "what came after".
So, there you have it (again). The world of hot rodding and suped-up cars is enormous, it is mind-bogglingly huge. But the sweetest spot of all, by far, is this narrowly defined world of traditional hot rods.

 

RYAN.....BrerHair is shit stirrin' again!

 

Inflexible? Seriously? My father was a hot rodder in Southern Ontario and Michigan in the mid-50's. His idea of what is traditional compared to a guy who was hot rodding in Bakersfield at the exact same time is going to be different. He is also from a time, and influenced me obviously, when hot rodders and sports car guys all hung out together. Car guys were car guys, not all separate, inflexible camps.

Not everyone can or wants to build a GNRS-winning, era-perfect hot rod. Not everyone wants to build the same damn car as the next guy.

A distaste for inflexible rules and the "conform or be cast out" mentality is why most of us are hot rodders in the first place.

 

Andrew, I could not agree with you more. Agree on all points. But understand that when I say "inflexible" I am simply referring to a timeline, nothing more, nothing less.
To draw the line at 1965 and to say that anything done after that "is not traditional" is pretty inflexible. But it is what we do here, and I do agree with it. We do need to draw the line somewhere.

 

And I always thought that beyond the classifieds it was more "you know it when you see it". There's been pictures of Camaros in here that even met the board's criteria. I honestly think the times we like began to fade with the intro of the rear engine dragster. That was what, 70-71? The sport needed it but things changed fast soon after and not just at tracks. Next...?

 

Well. Shit. Looks like my T isn't traditional. What with the glass body that was molded from Almquist molds from the mid-late 60's, sitting on a narrowed '31 Chevy frame with a Henry steel bed from a '27 T pick up, model A grill, Ansen aluminum wheels. Damn newer drive train. Oh well. I wasn't traditional with my '54 Bel Air 4 door that was nosed and decked, either.

 

Speaking only for myself, and my two cents worth: Just because something was done before 1965 doesn't automatically make it Traditional. As far as the definition of the word "Traditional", it means that lots of people used to do it, like turkey being a traditional Thanksgiving meal. Just because one guy had chicken "back in the day" doesn't make it traditional.

 

This idea is a good one and is not recognised enough. So often people will swear on a stack of bibles about 'the way it was' based on what Uncle Jim-Bob said he did once upon a time. But when and where was Uncle Jim-Bob at the time? It really does make a difference.

I was reading the letters sections from the 1948 issues of Hot Rod (it's first year) again the other night and those letters completely reinforce Big A's point.

 

Exactly! I would submit E&J lights as an example of this.

 

funny thing my 34 dodge delivery that I first saw as a kid in the early 60s today wouldn't be ham friendly. It would be a rat rod . That car is what got me interested in cars. I drove the owner crazy for years to sell it to me . He did in the late 70s . Built it ham friendly , when everyone was doing the resto rod thing ,chopped ,v8 quick change firestone dirt tracks halibrand wheels ect. always loved everything pre 1965 Always will .

 

The problem with bubbles it they burst easily. I don't feel anyone active in this conversation section of the forums remains in a complete bubble. Definitions are for those who really need them, who may not "get it" right away if ever. I eluded to a time above, and also mentioned above was the dreaded muscle car. And while we sort of gently snub such cars their predecessor is openly welcomed aboard. You know it, that thing DeLorean dreamed up? It's as if a truly traditional car enthusiast brought proper thinking into the GM boardroom. What followed lasted a very short time, under 6 model years really. It took decades to catch up and we all know they finally did, but after the 70 model year it was gov't intervention that pissed in our collective bowl of Cheerios. Smog motors, insurance lobbying, low lead and then no lead gas, season the whole mess with the Oil Embargo and lines at gas stations. Prior to those times it was a world any genuine enthusiast embraced regardless of their interests. Some of our most renown show rods came well after 1965. Some of the most "out there" did too, but until that 1st O.E.M. low compression "hot rod" engine came out of Detroit we were all living a dream. Now don't think I want our pages filled with LS6 Chevelles and Cobra Jets, but those also have a place near and dear to all reading this. Who in their right mind wouldn't have used a Mark IV big block in that rod he started on in 63 but didn't finish until 67? Maybe that ailing 390 got swapped bolt for bolt to a 428 CJ. I'll bet those guys didn't hear a big buzzer go off in their shops with "You Lose!! What do have for our runners up Johnny?" in the their heads. At the end of the decade tools were being made of plastic and meters were in molded boxes. Stickers were replacing water slides, corporate involvement grew in motor sports, the whole paradigm was changing into this sterile and lifeless blob we see today. Enough for now...

 

......................We need pictures.

 

Yep. But this is the elephant in the room here, and it is an important discussion. Hopefully it can continue in the thoughtful, well-informed manner we have seen thus far.

 

Of course the paradox is that Hot Rodding and Customizing by definition were breaking traditions as they were being invented. Innovation, parts-picking and swapping, repurposing, adopting "new" technology, etc. means that the mindset was "out with the old" and "in with the new". Now we're saying "out with the new, in with the old"!

 

SFFC makes an interesting observation about the regional differences "back in the day". The influence of HOT ROD, CAR CRAFT and R&C cannot be underestimated. With little or no travel budget, the magazines pretty much covered cars and companies in California. Once in awhile a freelancer from another part of the country would get a feature in one of the big three. Some of that changed as the magazines started to get major advertisers (and big travel budgets) thanks to the radio and TV ban on tobacco advertising. My definition of traditional is based on the fact that hot rodding is based on the ability to make something better with the materials at hand. Watson and Barris had no problem taking a brand new car and putting their respective touches on that car. Yet, on the other hand, when I took a brand new car and did the same thing, my efforts were not considered "traditional".

Defining traditional is very elusive.

 

[QU

OTE="lothiandon1940, post: 11330095, member: 33625"]......................We need pictu

with da kids and grand kids

 

Actually way back when we did all the name calling and drama discussing what is traditional and what is not the cut-off became '64. the '65 cutoff came at a later date.

Kind of makes me feel bad as at the time I was driving a sweet '65 galaxie that was not traditional.

Anyway just for the sake of accuracy, it really doesn't make any difference to me.

Now maybe someone infinitely more intelligent than myself can explain this to me, and just because it was brought up in the original post and for no other reason. What actually is the difference between a '66 small block and a '65 small block. Maybe let me take this a step further, if I roll into the hot dawg stand with an '80 engine block how many of you will actually know?

I once posted a rant (or so I was told by one of the resident drama queens) about common verses uncommon traditional. One of the things mentioned in my rant was the fact that jaguar had IRS in
'61 and Corvette had it in '63 and that while I am not a big IRS fan myself there is no doubt in my mind that it was used early in the '60s by cutting edge hot rodders. it would have been uncommon but no doubt it was done.

I also mentioned that disc brakes and radial tires were available in the '50s and '60s and I know for a fact that they were both being used in the San Francisco Bay area early on. again uncommon at best.

For the most part we lean toward what was common here, or at the very least that is what is socially acceptable. I don't have a problem with that, I do things the way that I do anyway. And certainly going with common we avoid a certain amount of drama, which is good for all of us when you get right down to it.

 

beauty is in the eye of the beholder, same with what is traditional. as said when you see true traditional or, close to it, you just know that it is right. not everyone has access to original parts in part due to the high prices today. since the beginning home modified, and aftermarket, parts have only improved looks and performance. but, there is a "line in the sand" as to what is right or not. we love the old but, live in a world of ever expanding high technology. kind of have a foot in both worlds. all of this deep thought can get your head spinning or, better yet go out and get your tires spinning.

 

........................Cool pic, Ron. Where was that taken?

 

Soooo much awesome, rule bending stuff from the mid to late 60's regularly shows up here I just can't see a need to complain, period.
The "modern" (LoL) stuff, like muscle cars, gets pounced on pretty quick...the sweet stuff that technically showed up a bit late, usually manages to crawl under the barbed wire and make an appearance...1965 cut off be damned!
The Mod's and Ryan know cool when they see it and let it slide.
The problem starts when some unenlightened person starts posting cars built with a look well beyond the styling cut off...AND THEN trys to change the board to match his personal requirements!
As long as we don't let that happen...no worries!

 

I appreciate a traditional build using real traditional parts. Not repro of those parts, not a new version, but the real thing. However I am also realistic that we can't all have that, there just is not enough of those parts and pieces available. So some new 2x2 or 3x2 intake on your engine keeps the traditional vibe, new cast alum heads on your flathead are still cool, those new wheels in style of the old are also good, that newer than 65 SBC or other OHV engine is also good within reason. The key here is perspective.

I would rather see a traditional style build with a fiberglass body and some new parts than a smoothed over, billet laden, non-traditional original chassis and body build. Technically neither one of these fits the strict HAMB definition of traditional. Actually by the strict definitions, none of my old hot rod vehicles meet it, but an awful lot of people seem to like my COE in my avatar pic regardless.

 

As mentioned throughout these guidelines, the H.A.M.B. focuses on TRADITIONAL hot rods and customs. Posts pertaining to traditionally inspired, but not quite period perfect belong on the main forum found here. Please note that we don't focus on things such as modern fuel injected motors, big-inch wheels, frame clips, after market independent suspensions, etc... at all on the H.A.M.B.. As such, posts that stray away from the "traditional inspired" will be deleted.

Hi all just meandered through the posts here and I think inspired is the magic bullet. This gives the board and members wiggle room. This definition is in the new member section and I think it would be better in the HAMB forum at the top...gotta go food for thought...

 

I think that we often confuse traditional with traditionally styled cars. A truly traditional car as in period perfect traditional is pretty much like a restoration. All the pieces that you use are going to want to be those and only those available for the period in question.

Now this brings the question and usually someone that lacks the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation but needs to feel part of the conversation will say that a car cannot be truly traditional unless you only use what is available, so if you have used a new spark plug or points and they did not come out of a stash of NOS parts from the era that it is not traditional. To which I usually respond, well I have some old tires that were aired up in '48 and still holding air if anyone wants to buy the air from them.

I think that one must draw their own line in the sand as to what is truly acceptable. Then it becomes our obligation to say well that is good enough for me, unless of course we are willing to adhere to the standard that we expect everyone else to.

I think for me it is a matter of what I like versus what is acceptable to others. For example, I like an old car to be an old car. I like the way that they feel and am accustomed to the way that they handle and the pit falls of perhaps not having crumple zones or ABS. I do draw myself a line at seat belts, I have broken more then one steering wheel in my time and feel that seat belts are a good idea. LOL

 

Hard to believe this thread is 11 years old. Sounds familiar ...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-great-hamb-perspective-survey.8115/

 

I'm a new guy, so I'm still getting used to how y'all do things around here. Just wanted to say that I find it a bit all a bit strange, as I recall back in the 80's going to the drive in's and meets, and the cut off date was '49 back then. If you wanted to participate your car had to be pre '49. No shoe boxes allowed. Then it got pushed out to the the late 50's so all the 55-57 Chevy's could participate; now around here it's set at '65. It seems a bit arbitrary to me. But hey, it's Ryan's site and he can do what he wants with it, I'm not complaining, just making an observation.

 

Actually 12!

 

You nailed it. It's Ryan's site and he can do what he wants with it. As for the hobby, obviously it's a fluid and flexible thing. Some cars straddle the lines between traditional/restomod/muscle/custom/rat and everybody has their own tastes, good and not-so-good. I'm just glad to have places where I can congregate with gearheads.