Technical Tech Week_False Riveting Alliance or other tags for holeless Installation

This tech thread is about false riveting your alliance tag so you can attach to your ride with adhesive without holes through attach location.


You will have to invest modestly in things to do this job


I learned this technique in aviation. It is a method of plugging holes in aluminum with add material (rivet). Depending on area for repair rivet can be flush on both sides or Dome (Protruding head) or Countersunk head and flush on one side etc.


In the case of the Tag we will use a Dome head 'A' hardness rivet.


First hole size must be determined to prepare correct rivet. Problem for me is I don’t know hole size in the Tag (hasn't got here yet). My guess is #30. Check hole with #30 drill bit to determine size. Drill should be very close to hole size and not to sloppy.


Here are holes sizes for standard rivets;


1) #40 (.098”) hole for 3/32” rivet


2) #30 (.1285”) hole for 1/8” rivet

3) #20 (.161”) hole for 5/32” rivet

So a great place to get rivets and tools for this is Aircraft Sprucehttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/ They sell small amounts for very reasonable cost. You can get the 1/8" squeezer die as well and the 100 degree rose bud (countersink) for touch countersinking. You may of course know of a supplier for such things as there are numerous places catering to RV to light aircraft.

Rivets may be left with original finish, painted or fine sanded and polished carefully prior to install. Paint may come off during install. Retouch as needed

Don't worry you can use the excess rivets and tools for many little projects.

The Pic Series​

The Things You will Need
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The Tag with #30 holes
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Touch countersinking 100 degrees square to surface
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Touch Countersinking detail
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Marking Cut too Line with Sharpie
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Cutting rivets to length
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Pre Peening visual
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Protection masking added to snap
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Bringing rivet head to snap (die)
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Setting Head to die
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Second View applying moderate downward pressure while peening
Rivets are 'A' class (soft) and require light blows to peen.
Do not overepeen...
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After riveting (Note only peen to fill touch countersinks)
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Carefully File (grind) peen side down to near flush

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Almost Done
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Done adhesive side
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Done Head side
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Done Head side (detail 2)
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Attached with 4 spots of latex caulk
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Applied Tag 1
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Applied Tag 2
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Applied Tag 3


Thats it everyone...Thanks for looking.

Stogy​

 

Great info on this. Jimmie

 

Nice work, thanks for posting

 

I still have my bucking bars, from pre 9-11.

 

That's pretty nice,the only fear I would have is the alliance tag is about the thickness of a beer can,very thin and a couple of whacks with a hammer would bend it big time.

I can see backing the tag with a piece of aluminum like you did in your tutorial to prevent damage. HRP

 

I did something similar once with a VIN tag..........epoxied the rivets into the holes, ground the
protruding rivets off the back on a belt sander and siliconed the tag to the firewall.

I know, I'm lucky I didn't go to jail for life.

 

Nice job. I once did similar with a data plate but used JB weld because it was on a door and I didn't want the plate to be jarred loose with use.

 

Thanks all for your interest...Will respond to queries when I have more time later...I have here a support graphic I did...

 

Interesting and ultra-crafty, but I'm not sure I get it. I think I can understand removing the tag later (selling the car and don't want your username on the tag, etc.), but even if you didn't want to fill / spot paint 4 pop rivet-sized holes or put something else on using same holes, how could you pry off a glued on plate / glue blob without damaging the tag itself or marring the paint around or under the plate?

As a PS, I pop-riveted a HAMB tag on the center console of my truck, but I removed the bottom part with my username. Just the HAMB shows. Gary

 

I'm thinking about getting a Powergen, and this'll work great for "riveting" a Delco-Remy tag on it! Thanks!

 

HRP
The rivet head actually sits in the die which you can add a layer of masking tape (not aluminum) to to protect the rivet surface. The tag itself does not contact the die and won't unless you hold the tag off angle. This is a precise process which takes practise but it is not to difficult to master. You use ballpeen hammer to peen the rivet which is an 'A' type which is soft (as is the tag I am sure is as well). You do this process very gently as the rivet is soft and only peen it till the touch csk. is filled, then take down excess which should not be a lot. No blacksmith banging here gentle light blows to the rivet to what is termed upsetting it. If you keep banging after touch csk is full yes it could start buckling the tag. It doesn't take much rivet sticking out to fill the touch csk. Maybe .010" to .015". Sorry long winded a bit.

Your touch csk. depth only has to be deep enough for rivet to expand and lock itself in which is not much.

When I get my tag I will do this to it and post it good or bad. I think it should be Ok. In aviation 'A' rivets are used in softer material applicatons that would be damaged by harder higher stress rivets.

 

Chucky
This riveting is a little different in that ballpeen hammer is the bar that applies the upset to the rivet...one thing about these 'A' rivets is they take far less riveting/bucking due to how soft they are. It is amazing how many bars are available. Some are made of tungsten (super dense and heavy metal). Been in aviation many years and have not used tungsten...someday. On a sombre note I was working on leading edges...largely riveting on that day. Will never forget it...stopped our production dead it did.

 

56don
Did you glue the rivets in as well. This is definitely blind as well but they could pop out. There are so many adhesives...what to use. I chose latex caulk and put four .250" dia spots on back and stuck it on. Not to much not too little. You don't want to aggressive an adhesive as it could damage plate and or paint during removal.

 

Gary
It is an option to holes yes, but your right if you destroy the tag and or paint removing it it makes no sense. That is why adhesive choice is important. It must withstand all the elements and of course hold. Sometimes the simple approach works best. Choose a adhesive which stays soft and flexible. I used this gray good quality latex caulk to seal some gaps in the car it was good quality and dried to a gray that matched...I just stuck the tag on with dabs not full face seal. To remove you could get an plastic aviation scraper they make a thin red one that would do the job. Perhaps just a sharp plastic mud scraper. Got to use something thing non marring to surfaces involved. I have not actually done this at all. It is an idea utilizing a aviation technique as we have various unique tags we can attach to our cars. This is just an option as some tags are personal. Super thin tags this would not be feasable for this...perhaps draw the line at .040" thick. I have to unstuck this tag I caulked to my car...Will let it sit for a bit and remove it...

 

hotrod54chevy
You may want to use fire caulking due to heat involved. I would think this would be fine. You can use this technique of riveting on quite thin material. Just apply enough touch csk. so the rivet with peen over to hold itself in. One thing to bear in mind wherever you use this technique make sure surfaces involved are clean and free of oil etc.

 

Hi All
If you try out this technique. Practice on some similar material. The aviation places usually sell aluminum sheet in various sizes and thickness. Riveting is one of those things that can be utilized in the hobby we are involved in and looks good too.
Update;
I used an aviation (plastic) scraper and gently worked 2 corners and it popped off with no distortion to the tag or damage to the paint (note it was definitely attached). Care must be taken however. There is a rule of thumb in aviation to never use anything harder than the material you are working on when working with it to minimize damage to the surfaces. Again when I get my Alliance tag I will perform this method discussed to demonstrate my original intended purpose.

 

Neato'.

 

instead of caulk or glue on your car surface. I glue a thin magnet to the back of the tag no mess to clean and can be relocated anytime

 

That may be a great alternative to caulking. Wind and vibration are the only concerns. You could try this inside the car somewhere to test it for how well it holds. Definitely great for the fridge and toolbox. Great idea Paul B thanks.

 

Why not use thin 2 sided tape, like used on modern cars for emblems and moldings?

 

You absolutely could...I guess the amount you use is important as removal without damage to the tag is part of the reason for doing this. I was just thinking on the fly and we have available many potential types of adhesive. Another great possibility BJR. Thanks...
Just to let you guys and gals know I got my tag to day. HRP is right...the tag is quite thin but I am going to apply this riveting method to it tomorrow and get it on the car.

 

Update I used a mock Tag for the original submission above. I have since false riveted the Alliance Tag as I recieved it Friday afternoon and applied it to the car and all was successful. I am posting a few photos of my Tag. I wanted to do this on my own tag why? So I could verify it works.

The Alliance Tag Back Side
Hole opened to #30 (from 1/8")​

4x touch countersunk
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Rivets, 100 degree six flute countersink​

4x Rivet cut down to length​

Rivet cut down to length & pre-fit to tag


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Rivet set in die for peening
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4x Rivets peened​

Tag clamped to allow rework to upset heads​

Tag clamped to allow Dremmel rework to upset heads​

Rivets upset heads reworked to .002" to.005" high ​

Front View​

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4 to 6 - 1/4" diameter spots of Caulking / Adhesive​

Its on Yehooo...​

Its on Yehooo...2

Thanks for your patience.
Stogy​

 

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/vote-now-tech-week-october-2015.995188/

Short time to vote

 

Update...I ended this tech thread with the tag affixed to the firewall. The final chapter to complete this is actually removing for reuse. So I have completed this task successfully with the following pics. Just an observation. The tag after several weeks was really stuck well so use minimal sealant as shown as the more you use the more difficult removal will be increasing chance of damage to your firewall and the tag therefore defeating the purpose.

False Riveted Tag Removal


Modified thin flexible Plastic Rule
gently work under tag
note chamfered end (180 sandpaper or smooth file)


Gently work plastic rule (chamfer up) flat as possible at entry point
under tag with side to side motion and saw through sealant.
Painters tape can be applied to protect if desired


Tag top view after very careful removal from firewall
(note size of sealant spots that anchored tag)


Tag side profile detail after removal
(note; tag integrity is maintained)


Sealant gently removed with plastic scraper


Sealant removal view 2


Firewall detail after removal
no holes to fill, paint scuff is very minimal
and Tag is now ready for application elsewhere

Remember whatever you use for adhesive use only minimal amounts as this is a semi permanent install. Tag thickness is only .018"

Thanks for looking...
Thank You HAMB
Stogy
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If using the two sided tape fishing line pulled through will easily remove the tag.

 

This may work better than the plastic ruler with sealant I used as well. Thanks for the suggestion i.rant

 

Hi All...Just letting you know I have reapplied the Tag several months ago and it looks great and has acted as well as expected no issues...now what to do with my new Brassy Classy Hamb Tag...



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Quality Update
Still like the day I installed it...Hamb proud...

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