Hot Rods The right oil for old cars and Engines

A topic that has been thrown around for years. The right oil..As we know the new oils are very thin and designed for close tolerance engines ,also have additives for anti wear. Was watching a program today about this very topic ,what oils to use in the older car engines with not so close tolerances and difference in the metals between the old and the new. One point they made was older engines need ( zink) in the oil and many are designed to run a thicker oil not the oil we see on the shelves today the 5w.20 etc and synthetic oils. I'm sure this will bring on a lot of comments ??? Gene

 

Religion, politics, motor oil. We all have strongly held opinions on each. I am sure you are about to hear some.

 

OK I want you people that I admire very much, to tell me what oil to run in my 1931 45 over 4 cyl. flat motor. It will be driven tenderly. And some hill climbing. Thank you Don in N W Indiana

 

Zinc.. Give me Zinc or give me death...

 

Opinion, bellybuttons.

I run Valvoline VR-1 Racing in everything old I own.

 

I use diesel, with a healthy squirt of this. No scientific evidence or results..

 

VR-1 Valvoline Racing Oil in anything with a flat tappet cam. WIX filters.

 

I give up on the auto parts stores. I buy cases of Brad-Penn from Summit or Advance. $100 at a time for free shipping, and a free box.

 

I know that this has been beaten to death but I think that the zinc was removed because it gunked up the catalytic converters. Well most of our cars do not involve "Cadillac converters" so add the zinc additive .
And or listen to gimpy.

 

Most if not all of the newer engines use roller lifters for this very reason or so I believe.

 

Lucas make a high zinc oil. They call it "Hotrod and Classic car motor oil". They used to call it high zinc but the stupid epa got in their business so they just changed the label. Get it thru your local Lucas rep preferably, Speedway, and I think Summit and Jegs. Personally I just use 15W/40 in all the old stuff.

 

We only use Brad Penn Oil's and Wix filters...... period.

 

Well everybody tells you what they use but know one is saying why. API American Petroleum Institute) sets the standards that oils have to meet. From 1951 to 1967 the service classification was SC. The EPA started getting involved with pollution standards and the Petroleum industry started changing their add packs, removing chemicals to help meet emissions. The service classifications started changing every few years until today the service classification is SN. All motor oils use the same base stocks and what separated them was the classification of base stocks which range from petroleum base to 100 % synthetic base stocks. In addition they all have their own formulas for their add packages that have to meet mfrs specifications. I use TORCO oil in my race car and street cars. They have an excellent add pack with superior friction modifiers blended in. Now having said that, .PENNZOIL / QUAKERSTATE has developed a new base stock that is very pure in their high mileage 100% synthetic oils and have shown very very good results in your older engines

 

Proper Oil

Not that I'm a follower to his show , but on Jay Leno's new show televised weekly from his garage with hundreds of his cars ,on one of his eposodes he talks abouit the importance of zinc in oil for the old cars and engines

 

In this day an age...And cams that tell you to remove springs if using more than one, Brad Penn....Hi in zink, and Truly Your best break in oil, And if it's good enough to Break in...My $ and engines run Brad Penn, Very pleased with the results!!! I regularly take my Blower truck up to 6500 and have not seen one pound of oil psi drop in All heat ranges in 3500 mls. Of use...

 

Brad Penn 40 Wt in my V12, I love this oil. also dropped about 20* of operating temp

 

I use 15/40 diesel engine oil, have for a looooong time, never any issues, I believe it has zinc in it, it's pretty good stuff overall.

 

I started writing a reply to this thread, and before I knew it I had a freakin' dissertation going. On this subject there is much misinformation out there that just keeps getting recycled over and over, even among people that should know better (i.e. cam manufacturers). I ended up deleting the whole damn thing and figure I really need to write a white paper on the subject. Suffice it to say that fears of cam failures from use of modern PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil) engine oils are greatly exaggerated with little to no scientific proof. (if someone has links to documented case studies showing the damaging effect to flat tappet cams from modern PCMO's please share, that would be great). Keep in mind that all zinc compounds (ZDDP) are not created equal, and just because a motor oil has a highj level of zinc does not mean it is necessarily any better than another motor oil with lower zinc levels. There are a lot of charlatans out there, fear mongers, looking to make a quick buck selling snake oil to an unsuspecting public. The oil industry is full of them, I know, I've been in the business myself for 15 years, and am a Certified Lubrication Specialist with the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers, and am employed as a Lubrication Engineer with a major international lubricants company that you all know but will remain nameless as I am not here representing them.

To cut to the chase, what do I use in my older flat tappet engines? I use Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil (HDDEO), which brand I use I'll keep to myself, but there are many out there that are very good. Really, any CJ-4 rated HDDEO must meet specific performance parameters that in order to do so they have to pass exceptionally stringent testing and be fortified with very good performing base oil and additive technology. Why HDDEO? Because they are formulated for severe duty service with exceptional load carrying capacity and wear resistance, and excellent anti-oxidation performance. (and for those fixated on zinc levels, they typically have about 1200 - 1400 ppm of zinc) In the old days there was a problem with using HDDEO's in gasoline engines, because they had comparatively high levels of sulfated ash, which could lead to piston deposits in gasoline engines. But since 2010 and the CJ-4 service classification the level of sulfated ash is limited to 1%, which is just about the same level as the older PCMO oils that were around when our old flat tappet engines were new. So the SA levels really aren't a concern, and HDDEO's that meet the CJ-4 specification must meet certain test limits for piston deposits anyway, so this concern has largely been eradicated. Most HDDEO's are formulated using group II base oils, for excellent long life and resistance to oxidation and nitration. The most common viscosity grade for HDDEO's is 15W40, which IMO is pretty damn good for our older engines too. Heck, straight 30 and 40 grades were very common back then, now we have the advantage of multi-viscosity oils with far greater viscosity index (that's a good thing). So, that's my recommendation, any major brand HDDEO meeting the CJ-4 specification, either 15W40 or 10W30 is fine, here in So Cal I like the higher viscosity.

 

I run this : http://www.castrol.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/products/cars/classic-oils/classic-engine-oils.html

For the simplest reasons,
The are the only classic oil widely avalible in all shops over here.

Also because in 1950 and up this was the leading brand, closely followed by Duchames (green oil), that is now unavalible.

And because I had good experience with it!!!

 

I still just run Castrol straight weight 40 in the summer and 30 in the winter. I don't know what the ZDDP count is in it but it works for me. I run Castrol 20W50 and 10W40 in my old bike. But it has a roller cam and those are the recommended weights from the factory.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if I had an old flathead motor 4, 6 or 8 cylinder I would run Oilzum. I have not read any reports on it but from what I understand ( have been told) they still use the same formula that they used 70 or so years ago.

I guess I really have no real information for a real argument here. I just do what works for me.

 

run 10 w 40 and sae 30 thats blended at a blending /packing plant with the old zddp levels , thank goodness the owners of the place have a old car collection and they make up and drum a batch ( 1000 gallons ) of this stuff every once and a while and he sells it to a few of us who know him .

I used to use case/Ih low ash oils in my gas vehicles , but since I found my new source which is cheaper I changed .

 

The debate rages on.

 

Me, 5-30 castrol edge(synthetic) in 8BA,305 SBC(non roller),2008 and 2008 OT cars, 19 HP Write stander(mower), 6.5 Generator, 3.5 power washer, 5.5 push mower. Not having a bunch of different oil around same oil for all!! Pete

 

Use Car Quest 15/40 diesel truck oil in both my Flathead and my Nailhead, also in my lawnmower

 

Well guys, motor oil technology has come a long, long way over the past few decades. If you're still running a straight grade motor oil from any blender it does not come close to the performance of a more modern chemistry, not close. It's like comparing 1957 Chevy mechanical fuel injection technology vs modern computer controlled electronic fuel injection. The two don't even reside in the same universe.

Oil has a lot of jobs to do besides keep cams and tappets from failing, it has to keep the engine clean, and it has to prevent rust and corrosion, it has to keep contaminants dispersed until they can be removed by the filter or drained out when you change the oil. It has to prevent the formation of varnish and lacquer deposits, and prevent the formation of carbon deposits on the pistons, especially around the ring grooves and lands, and under the piston crown. No straight grade oil, or oil blended to a 70 year old formulation will, or can, come anywhere close to matching the performance of a modern engine oil in any of these areas. It's not the viscometrics of a straight grade oil that prevents better performance in these areas, it's that nobody is blending a straight grade oil with modern chemistry.

Re small blends from a toll blender, geeeez, you have no idea what you're getting, none at all. You're putting total trust in these guys you probably have very limited knowledge of. The oil is not tested and certified by the API to meet any performance specification, it's really a roll of the dice. Maybe these guys are like really, really good, and using a proven technology additive package from a top shelf additive company, blending it to a top shelf group II base oil in the proper ratios proven to be effective, but the odds are against it. Are you a betting man? I do a little gambling, but I try to know the odds when I do.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or insult anyone, just trying to share information. Guys, this is what I do for a living. You all can teach me about splitting wishbones and z-ing frames and chopping and channeling, etc. when it comes to oil allow me to share the knowledge I've accumulated over a lot of years of hard work. These may be my opinions, but they are opinions based on fact and commercial experience. Got questions? Go ahead and ask and I'll do my best to give you good, honest answers. I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone.

 

Also, about these zinc aftermarket additives, and other aftermarket additives, that you add to your own oil, IMO they are worse than a waste of money, they can actually be harmful, and typically they are. Modern engine oils are a carefully engineered package that formulators spend a ton of time and money working on to balance the performance of different additives. Of the additives blended into any oil there are several that are "surface acting", meaning they are polar and have an attraction to the oil wetted surfaces. Some of these are to boost anti-wear performance, some are to prevent deposits from forming on the surfaces, or to lift and clean any that have already formed, some are there to prevent rust and corrosion from forming on the surfaces, and sometimes there are also friction modifying lubricity agents. These additives all compete with each other, and the formulators have taken great pains to balance these, using different compounds that work nicely with each other or even form synergies and enhancing the performance of each other. Than along comes you with your bottle of aftermarket additives which you pour into the blend and screw all of that all up. DON'T DO IT!!! Purchase and use good quality engine oils from major lubricant companies, stay away from the small companies that don't even license their products with the API, and use them without ANY aftermarket additives. Mechanics that recommend them, that should be a red flag for you, the guy may be good with a valve grinder, but he doesn't understand lubrication.

 

One more thing, than I'll shut up for awhile. RE racing motor oils. These oils are designed for racing, they are really intended for short term operation vs the long life of the typical on-road use. As such they may have high levels of anti-wear additives, but typically do not contain the same levels of detergents and dispersants, anti-oxidants, rust and corrosion inhibitors as oils designed primarily for on-road street duty. If you use these change them frequently, like monthly, depending on how you drive. They really are not intended for cars that get driven daily with 3000 - 5000 mile or longer oil changes, or for our weekend warriors that get driven hard and put away wet and then sit for a week or 2 (or longer) before being taken out again and doing the same thing. Check the API licensing of these oils, chances are they don't carry one, because they are not intended for that kind of use. If it doesn't carry an API license, don't use it in your street car.

 

Blues4U, thanks and you make a lot of sense. The antique car guys (the older ones especially) have used HDDEOs (thanks for the acronym) for decades, many expressing the same reasons you do.Somebody must have delivered this message long ago. You're right about fear mongering too. It invades machine work as well and lots of folks have had hardened valve seats installed on engines that will NEVER EVER need them due to the alloys used in their old block's construction. Model A Fords come to mind as do Packard and many other fine marques that have, essentially, cast steel blocks and seats vs old cast iron. HDDEO is about as perfect a compromise, or indeed an improvement, to what may have worked long ago. Oil use is like old style brand loyalty but a seasoning of logic goes a long way. Thanks again...

 

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/ Look at this it tests one hundred fifty brands of oil. It gives Info on wear and additives and whether zinc does anything or not when added. It's long but lots of good reading and info. This guy explains stuff very well. At least to my thinking. Enjoy.

 

Thanks 57linc, it's very well written.