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Hot Rods Cheap 301 combo

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Speed Gems, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    I was just reading a thread over on Speedtalk.com about chevy rod part numbers and it led to a couple of 301 Chevy threads here on the H.A.M.B. so I got to thinking about a cheap 301 build for nostalgia racing. What about boring a 307 Chevy block that could be gotten cheap (if not free) and bore it .125 over and use a SCAT 283 crank and rods. Yes I know the 307 came out in '68 and would need bearing spacers to use the 283 crank (I think KING still makes them).
     
  2. Think it will handle that big of an over bore?

    Easier to find the 350 blocks too.
     
  3. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    I've been told by a machinist friend of mine who goes by the name Plaintoast on here that most 307's will handle a .125 over bore.
     
  4. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    I was also thinking the (new) 265 L99 crank might make a good alternative with the large journal block and get rid of those stock two bolt main caps and buy a set of splayed four bolt caps.
     

  5. flux capacitor
    Joined: Sep 18, 2014
    Posts: 696

    flux capacitor
    Member

    Done one in our machine shop for my dads orig owner 69 c10 that away, in late 80's. It's opened it up to std 4 inch bore specs. Cylinder walls thick as can be still. Used torque plates & make few extra passes, turned out great, they'll handle .125 no problem. I bought a set of perfect circle "clevite" thick bearings long ago to put nos 283 gm small journal crank in 4 bolt early gm Lg journal block but never got around to putting it together. I've always been Leary of thick bearings, but have pals that've had good luck with them. I bet clevite still has them available too but I Rember paying up to get a set, seems like they were 3x as high. Way too many ways to do the same thing. I was gonna pull my DZ block in fear of me destroying it but luckily it survived. Super fun little motors. I always figured the small journal jobs might be a little more super fly on rotating mass. Either route you choose, I wish it well! Flux
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
  6. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    I see no reason? You bore a 307 4" you have a 327/350 block.... Am I missing something?

    I'm sure someone has done this with the 307 they already had to make it a 327 , but otherwise why would you not just get a early 327 and 283 crank and forget the spacers?
     
  7. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,711

    55willys
    Member

    When I worked in a machine shop in my late 20's I built a 327 using a 307 crank and a 4 bolt 350 block. I punched it .080 over because it might not have cleaned up at .060 and we had a set of .080 over 327 pistons collecting dust in the shop. I got parts at cost and the labor was free so a cheap way to go for me. Jim Ford
     
  8. flux capacitor
    Joined: Sep 18, 2014
    Posts: 696

    flux capacitor
    Member

    I agree, ditch the spacers & Locate & bore a small journal block to 4 in bore. We wanted to keep our original 307 engine for our c10 " sintimental value" & open it up to be a 327 for pep. But for a "cheap" 301, a 283 or pre November 68 year small journal 307, 327 block be much better choices. For the wallet & life of main bearings on a budget 301 build. But there are so many avenues to do this & "everybody's normal till you get to know them" is something my best pal once told me, oh how true that can be, even when we try to see our perspective from another's point of view....... we may not be normal to them! So it's a choose your own 301 destiny sorta decision. I'm a proponent of it pays to wait & gather up enough to do it right first time or not at all & there are so many decently affordable pieces available now I'd wait till I found a nice block of the "small journal variety, locate a genuine gm steel 283 crank spend money on good aftermarket rods, main studs, & do all the deck, allignhone torque plate bore n hone, chamfer crank, get her loose enough to live well etc. & this will square it up with the world all the while keep adding quality stuff like forged Pistons, & balance the mass. This will be worth the wait, I'm afraid cheap will be just that. Think of it as a higher quality cheap! Ohh & even the better stuff can swarm! Good luck! Flux
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
    Hnstray and Bowtie Coupe like this.
  9. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    Yes, my point was that nobody seems to want 307's and they can be had for little or nothing which might help offset the cost of machine work and spacers.
     
  10. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,407

    oldolds
    Member

    It's a SBC. Unless you are looking for one of the many special blocks, you can get everything else for little or nothing.
    Complete pic-a-part motors are cheap. Strip one out and they get even cheaper. Around here complete motor is $150. Shortblock it $50.
     
  11. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Wait.....

    A. the 307 block is 'cheap' but that is offset by higher cost 'adapter' parts

    B. the block (small brg) may cost the same, or slightly more, but the parts cost less
    and are off the shelf items

    C. machining costs are the same. Both blocks need fresh bore and other truing

    How is assembly A, which is disadvantaged by higher cost and possibly unobtainable
    replacement parts (oversize bearings), a better deal than assembly B? Seems to me
    in the short run the cost is close to the same, but in the long run, A's non-standard bearings
    gives the edge to B.

    Ray
     
  12. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

    It's really only cheap if you can machine it your self. I'm all for mixing and matching sbc combos. A 301 is all about rpm, so how much do you trust a spacer bearing. How much are pistons with the correct pin ht for close to zero deck.

    I've got a 4 inch stroke crank with a 350 bearing size, hmmm, it would make a very sneaky large journal 327 build.

    Pick up as many free sbc as you can and see what you can make from them. 305' have basically a 350 rotating assy, throw the block away and only keep the heads if they are 1.94 valve. 307's will give you a 327 large journal crank and a block that's expensive to gather a 4 inch bore.
     
  13. aaggie
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,530

    aaggie
    Member

    The last 301 I built was a 283 block bored to 4". Stock crank and rods with Jahns pistons and a good balance job. I ran it past 8000 RPM many times and replaced the valve springs maybe twice during the season. Easy peasy as the new kids say.
     
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  14. pdq67
    Joined: Feb 12, 2007
    Posts: 787

    pdq67
    Member

    I have everything except pistons to make another old junk301!

    '66 283 round bottom block, notched flange 3" forged crank, -291 big valve heads, a brand new still in the box 300-36 Holley true hi-rise, a 3310 750 Holley....

    Cam is a way old school 280/246, 108/108, .498"/.498" lift and needs .030" hot lash.

    I'm even thinking about using the longest rod I can buy and mix and match 350 or 383 pistons??

    I love these little short-stroke engines up top!

    pdq67
     
  15. ididntdoit1960
    Joined: Dec 13, 2011
    Posts: 1,030

    ididntdoit1960
    Member
    from Western MA

    I have a set of NOS jahns pistons in the classifieds......
     
  16. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,144

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Not sure it has been mentioned yet, the 64-67 Chevy II blocks(283) have always been good to go for .125 over, but they are not cheap or easy to find. Keep in mind; block core shift plays as big of a role as anything in boring (any) engine block oversize. But you all knew that.
     
  17. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Most 283s will go .125 and you need a 283 crank anyway , like mentioned previous , bearing spacers seems like another worry if you plan on spinning 8,000 rpm...

    If you wanted a 327 that would be a different story
     
  18. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    Cheap? Not in this world. BUT, the cheapest way is to just use a 283 crank in a small journal 327 block. It's the pistons that will be the most cost involved. OR, use any 327 piston you want with a 5.85 inch long aftermarket rod (less than $200.00 on that auction site we all know and love). OR, use any 350 piston you want with a 5.94 inch long rod (Factory powered metal rod or aftermarket). Longer rod equals less cylinder wall loading. You'll need to deck your block to get an ideal quench. For those of you that are't aware, a SBC has a 9.025 inch deck height; to figure out the piston/rod combo, take 1/2 the stroke (1.5 for a 3" stroke crank), the pin height/compression height of the piston (327=1.67---350=1.56 inches), add the pin height/compression height with the 1/2 stroke and subtract that from the deck height of 9.025 to arrive at the needed rod length. The only 301/302 pistons you'll find will be high compression, and expensive. If you start swapping small journal cranks into large journal motors, it's the thick bearings that get costly also (Clevite MS-1110H). Or, using large journal rods on small journal cranks (King Bearing CR867HP) is costly too. Then you need the big valve heads, springs for the RPM's, intake and carb , hardened seats if you want to try getting by with the best street gas you can find, then the exhaust, and then the low gearing to make it all work. You can also use the large journal blocks too, but an 1178 crank will cost $800-$1200 dollars (I have one of those!), or an aftermarket Chiuanese will run $650.00. Always start with a 4 inch bore block; by the time you take a 283 or 307 .125 over, the rusted water passages may not support the overbore. Now balance it. Cheap? Not in this world........... anymore. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
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  19. If you are buying a scat crank anyway just buy a large journal crank in the stroke that you want, it doesn't cost any more they are an off the shelf crank.

    I don't know if a 307 block will go .125 or not but if you are already buying a scat crank in large journal why not just buy a 350 block they are cheap and more plentiful that 307s.

    Now while on th subject of oddball combos if I just happened to have a 400 block I have a 307 crank and I would love to build a short stroke 350. So if anyone has a 400 block that they are giving away. :D
     
  20. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

    56sedandelivery
    have you used a 5.94 rod yet. I've looked at them a few times but never pulled the trigger. I've used bushed 6 inch Oldsmobile rods in a SBC 350 and aftermarket 6 inch rods. I need a set of 5.85 rods. I have a 350 journal 4 inch stroke Cola crank and pistons.
     
  21. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,144

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Call Callies in Ohio, not cheap but high quality.
    If you call China, it won't be your last call.
     
  22. I know it's not the exact question you asked, but get the cheap/free 307 and then later put that crank (and possibly rods) into a 350 block. This will make a cheap nice high winding potential large journal 327. Need correct pin height pistons of course, so you may juggle rod lengths to use lower cost 350 style pistons.
     
  23. I haven't checked it out, but the interweb wisdom says the 307 cranks balance is way off if you try that. I wish I could get confirmation.

    What I do know that works is 283 domed pistons and 400 rods in a 307 for a cheap high compression engine.
     
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  24. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    OK, so so far what we have...

    A. Machine work costs about the same both blocks need a fresh bore and trueing.

    B. Bearing spacers are expensive and hard too find.

    C. 64-67 Chevy II 283 blocks are getting expensive and hard to find.

    D. 307 blocks are cheap and easy to find.

    I like Beaners idea of buying a scat crank with the large main journal size but wouldn't the (new) 265 L99 crank fit that bill? I guess I was just trying to come up with an alternative (new school) way to build a 301 using a cheap, newer, more plentiful block that nobody seems to want anyway
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  25. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Your in Minnesota ... I thought everyone wanted a 350/350 there? 283s and small journal 327s that rare up there now?

    I was there 3 yrs ago and 283 and 327s were still 100-300.00 cores... How much is a new scat crank? Last crank from crankshaft supply I got was 150.00 with bearings

    I'm sure price is up a little but that's main components right there for less than a new crank ... Scat is cast 283 is forged.... Why re-invent the wheel?

    I like 307s if I find them in good tuning condition, cause they're cheap but I accept them for what they are..
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  26. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    Yes I am from Minnesota but I don't want a 350/350. I want a SG 327/PG combo. I just did some checking on mortec.com and the L99 265 does have 2.45 mains although I doubt it's forged.:mad: And
    didn't they use the longer 5.94" rods?

    Gen.II, "Medium Journal", includes "L-99" 265, "LT-1" 350, "LT-4" 350
    265...Mains-2.45"-rods-2.10"
    305...Mains-2.45"-Rods-2.10"
    350...Mains-2.45"-Rods-2.10"
     
  27. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    The factory "cracked cap" rods, AKA powdered metal rods, are't rebuildable, at least from what I've heard. Once again, aftermarket rods are the cheaper way out. The "other" issue with a 307, or even the early small journal blocks, or large journal 327 and most 350 blocks, is they're not 4 bolt main, only 2 bolt. More cost there to convert them to 4 bolt, but 350, 4 bolt blocks are everywhere. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  28. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member


    My point was I don't think people there really care about the old stuff still and are too cheap to build a 283 for 2k when they can build a 350 for 1k or less so the core isn't valuable...

    I think if you want a 301 you'd want a clutch
     
  29. partsdawg
    Joined: Feb 12, 2006
    Posts: 3,503

    partsdawg
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Minnesota

    Last weekend I bought a '64 283 and a '65 327 for $50.00 each. Both are complete and turn over.
    They are out there and cheap IF you want to hunt.
     
  30. Speed Gems
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 6,433

    Speed Gems
    Member

    BUMP for the day shift.
     

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