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Technical Drawing a line in the sand

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by porknbeaner, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. Ulu
    Joined: Feb 26, 2014
    Posts: 1,775

    Ulu
    Member
    from CenCal

    LOL Gimpy, you probably couldn't pay me to drive a car in 'Frisco without modern power disc brakes.
    I have driven all of my cars there, but I felt much more comfortable on those hills with good brakes.
     
  2. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You got that right. Facing down a long 22% grade, with a stop sign a the bottom, makes you think long and hard about single-circuit master cylinders, and drum brake fade.

    I live and work in a land where 20 individual pistons gripping huge disc brakes, and an overwhelming sense of self-entitlement, and invincibility, are the norm, and I cannot afford to hit a single one of them.
     
  3. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,366

    31Apickup
    Member

    I feel the only True traditional cars are the ones that are actual unaltered survivors. Today's definition is pretty diluted, I see cars where they only use parts from before 1948, but it's stuff that was never used on Hot Rods back then. Or one car had a particular modification but it was not usual at that time and no one else did it, but people jump on the bandwagon it's traditional. There are a few cars on here that have been built to look authentic, but many can be be faulted. I enjoy seeing them all, whether correct or not.
    I like all kinds of cars and build my cars to suit myself, I don't care if anyone likes it or not, just as long as I do. I grew up reading my Dad's old 50's Hot Rod magazines and tried to keep some of the general look when I built my pickup 30 some years ago. I remember people giving me flack at a cruise in for using those dangerous split wishbones and 40 hydraulic brakes. I ran baby moons and painted wheels for years, always loved the Kidney slot Halibrand's, but they are rare and pricey,so when the Salt Flats came out they have the look so, I decided why not. If it doesn't have an exposed engine, then who cares what's under the hood if you don't see it. Regarding small block chevy's, who is going to know it's a 283, 327 or an crate 350 who is going to look at the serial number, etc.
    Just put your car together, drive it and have fun, life is short. Do whatever it takes!
     
    JOYFLEA, Gary Reynolds and Special Ed like this.
  4. Worse yet, drive on those 60's roads with 21st century traffic.

    For many, 'traditional' is the sum of the parts, while for others it's more about the 'look'. Everyone is going to have a slightly different picture in their head of what 'traditional' is, but I think all could agree that it should at least appear more-or-less 'correct' for whatever 'look' you're trying to achieve. Now at this point the hard-core guys will insist that all the details matter, while others feel that getting the 'look' is all that's needed. I'll come down firmly in the 'look' category, as rodding to me has always been about innovation and originality, so rejecting anything that wasn't 'commonly' done 'back in the day' simply stifles imagination and produces cookie cutter cars. Add in the sometimes costs of finding/using the 'correct' parts (or attempting to use repo parts) to build a 'nice' car and build budgets can get out of hand. That's pretty much where the whole 'rat rod' and 'patina' things came from.

    With all that said, I'll agree that if you're using bits that don't fit the 'look', you're missing the point of traditional. If the part is a major component that's seen at a casual glance, it needs to be right. For me, no EFI, not a fan of automatic transmissions (unless race-themed or OEM), pussyfoot suspension/disc brakes are OK if not easily seen, visible AC vents is another no-no. Not a fan of bagged cars either, but if you're building a 'correct' super-low custom, using bags is probably a good idea for safety reasons as most of the lowered cars done back then neither rode or handled well. Let's face it, what was 'good enough' back then isn't always safe on modern highways.
     
    Mat Thrasher and Special Ed like this.
  5. wearymicrobe
    Joined: Jul 27, 2007
    Posts: 265

    wearymicrobe
    Member
    from San Diego

    I like alchemys format.

    MIG - yes
    TIG - yes
    oxy/acetelene - yes
    lead filler - no
    Bondo - yes
    radials - no
    alternators - no
    dual master - yes!!!
    air bags - no
    air conditioning - no
    LEDs - no
    halogen headlights - no
    halogen taillights - no
    new Winged Stewart-Warners - no
    original winged Stewart-Warners - no
    new disk brakes - yes
    Kinmont disk brakes - yes
    mechanical brakes - no
    cloth top inserts - yes
    smooth filled tops - yes
    ribbed filled tops - no
    T-5 - no
    Walker radiators - no
    aluminum radiators - no
    fiberglass bodies - no
    repro steel bodies - on the fences
    a SBC period - no
    a flathead older than 1955 - yes
    12 volts - yes
    6 volts - no
    old paint - no
    new paint - yes!!
    old speed equipment - yes
    repro speed equipment - no.
     
  6. ^ wearymicrobe- why the no on the original winged steward warners?
     
  7. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    How close to fully traditional for me depends on which of my projects I am working on. The 48 will respect traditional customs of mid 50's early 60s but have some things that probably aren't period correct but won't be offensive to many. It will be a "could have been turned out by a custom shop in the late 50's with outward appearances staying close.
    The Model A Vic will stay a lot closer to the Traditional V8 swapped full fender Model A that you may have seen in the early 50's. The only thing that will not be on the money is the T-5 because i want to get out and drive it a lot of miles. Flathead, drum brakes all around, dropped axle, convertible top material rather than the leatherback that came with it. Although it is nothing but a rusty hulk now the intended look is that of a "decent stocker" that got the hot rod treatment. I'll probably run the generator that came with the engine after it gets a visit with the local generator shop.
     
  8. Moby
    Joined: May 18, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Moby
    Member Emeritus

    As my wife says, "do what you wanna do, you will anyway".

    Include me in the "traditional looking from a distance but need to be safe at 75 mph" crowd. I just drove 1700 miles in my avatar (HRR Bowling Green and back) mostly at 75 mph, so obviously safety and reliability are more important to me than being a slave to tradition. Next month we're driving the same car about 3,500 miles around the Gaspe Peninsula and Nova Scotia.
     
    i.rant, Hitchhiker and rockable like this.
  9. afaulk
    Joined: Jul 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,194

    afaulk
    Member

    Good thread Pork n Beaner. The hotrodders intent originally was to make the car lighter, by getting rid of unneeded or unwanted parts, such as fenders, bumpers, etc. updating to a larger, newer technology, higher performance engine, trans, bigger tires and better brakes. People are continuing that tradiition by using readily available newer/higher performance, higher technology parts. If they have the funds, where do you draw the line. If one wants a period correct hotrod, pick a period and go for it. No matter what you do, some folks will approve and others won't. Wouldn't it be boring if they were all the same. Cheers, Allan
     
  10. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,734

    Binger
    Member
    from wyoming

    This is a good thread. Its funny how in wanting to build a traditional hotrod how your thinking needs to change to that of a restorer. You start to worry about having the right Period correct fasteners and grease fittings and hoseclamps. Its Funny that some people who complain about the folks on the AACA forum and ford barn have become in a sense the same in needing all old correct parts. The line is blurred for me too. there is a definite balance between traditional and functionally safe. another thing to consider is most of us builders are older now and would do things differently than say a 18 year old kid would do in 1958.
     
    Gary Reynolds and Saxman like this.
  11. HemiRambler
    Joined: Aug 26, 2005
    Posts: 4,208

    HemiRambler
    Member

    Never been a purist...couldn't afford it - never understood it when it came to Hot Rods. By definition Hot Rods were changed to make them better. I understand the whole guideline thing, but that's as far as it goes for me. My '47 Ford truck was basically an untouched "Hot Rod" (of sorts) from the 60's - built by my buddy's dad. And I loved that fact, but!!!!! I wanted to USE IT... not just drive it but use it - to tow my dragster with.
    The first things to shit can was:
    the drum brakes
    the single m/c
    the keyed axles
    the generator
    the radiator (it couldn't cool the hemi on the highway)
    the manual steering

    What I kept:
    the hemi (of course)
    the iron push button trans (replaced with identical)
    the interior (including most of the column and stock wheel)
    the scratched up paint
    most importantly the "look" of the truck is identical to the day I first saw it when I was 10 or 12.

    What I don't necessarily like:
    The aluminum radiator - the radiator shop drug out the quoting process so long that I was in a pickle and was NOT going to pay 1,200 to recore the stocker and absolutely was NOT going to miss an upcoming race - so I did what I could get quick - aluminum. Oh well shit happens.

    What I regret:
    I took the truck over to my buddy's Dad's place (the original builder) and he LOVED the upgrades - what he didn't see was the radiator and power steering, but since cooling was ALWAYS a problem when he had the truck I am quite sure he would have liked it. I also know he would have LOVED the steering! I regret not doing the power steering years ago - I would have LOVED for him to have seen that!

    I had several conversations with him before he passed away. You see he never set out to build to some "standard" other people defined. He was "hopping up" the family truckster. He liked hemi's and LOVED auto transmissions. He told me how when those first came out they were the 'coolest' thing and they absolutely HAD to have one in their hot rod (an old ford) - so they pieced together a bunch of steel plate and puzzled enough of it together to have made a bell housing to adapt an early slush box to their hot rod. He told me how they were "the coolest" because EVERYONE else had standards and they had an auto when it was never available - all because they fabbed up what was necessary. Now it's somehow "untraditional" to have an auto -my guess is that he would have fell off his chair had he ever heard that. Don't get me wrong I am NOT anti stick or anything like that - I just find some of these perspectives very funny after having had conversations with some of the "older" hot rodders.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
  12. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,198

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    There was an interesting show last night on Extreme RV's show casing an old Airstream with modern touches. When I heard the owner talking about the iconic shape of an Airstream and how he added modern touches, I thought of the threads like this one on the HAMB. I subscribe to the therory that traditional hot rodding is a state of mind, not a paint by numbers project. This is based on the fact that I was there in the fifties and wrote for the car books in the sixties and seventies.
     
    wingnutz likes this.
  13. forty1fordpickup
    Joined: Aug 20, 2008
    Posts: 298

    forty1fordpickup
    Member


    I guess I'm in the same mode. This is one I bought because it will run at 75 all day and stop when required. 350/350, 8" 3.0:1 rear, disk/drum brakes. Traditional, to the traditional purist not really. But is is a fun reliable ride. I believe when the day is done that is what counts.
    Since picking it up: 1 oil change and grease over 3200 miles.
    My line is very wavy.
    image.jpg
     
  14. Any line I draw will be broad and fuzzy, but the car's theme will be consistent. I build my cars to an early sixties era look. ...meaning as I remember seeing and building them during my high school years in northern CA and from reading HRM as a kid.


    Compromises I make are car specific. Noticeability, as I perceive it, of the deviations from hot rod or kustom purity is a factor. ...and compromises to increase safety are frequent, but not absolute. Mechanical maintainability is a consideration. I am also trained as an engineer, and find it extremely difficult not to modify things I see potentially benefitting from improvement I think I can make. But I also love the art found in the design of many component parts from cars of the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's, thus I love to customize a car or hotrod by adding and integrating bits of beauty from other car designs.


    My building methods are modernized by tools I now am blessed to have. I love to use my Miller Dynasty TIG on sheet metal, but I need to use my old Victor oxy-acetylene torch for headers.


    Modern paints and fillers are a reality for the urban area I live in, and I am not going to fight it. I prefer old sheet metal whenever I can reasonably get it, it just fits easier.


    My 1929 Ford cabriolet shows the evolution of a Great Depression years' driven car, with BLC headlights and '40 ford brakes, but the interior also has art deco influenced heater box, steering wheel, and instrument panel. It has Merc wheels and bias ply wide whites and other subtle modifications to the exterior. Under the hood is a banger that did not stop evolution with just sixties era speed equipment. In other words, it is pretty purely traditional for the sixties, except for a compromise with some newer banger speed equipment and F150 OD trans.


    My '51 Ford could almost fit in a 1960's high school student parking lot as a mild custom with its mild rake, nosed and decked, with DeSoto style side trim and Lancer style spinner wheel covers. It is a modern driver, though, with radial wide whites, front disk brakes, and shoulder belts. The motor looks fairly traditional, but is a bit more than even a serious hotrodder rich kid would have likely had, a 1958 Chrysler 392 hemi, with aluminum heads and a Crower U-fab type 8x2 manifold and eight helmet style air cleaners peaking through small teardrop shaped holes cut in the hood. But it is made driveable with efi and programmable electronic ignition. Compromises are made, but a visual appearance goal of early hot rod, mild custom is met.


    Building a pure traditional hot rod or kustom with absolutely no compromises is beyond my budget, my skills, and my mindset. I appreciate purity and respect those who go to great efforts to achieve it, but if I had a classic Deusenburg or historic kustom car, I would still likely do something to destroy its investment value, and make it more mine.
     
  15. A Boner
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 7,419

    A Boner
    Member

    The wavy line is more my style, but I love looking at the anal stuff. I appreciate the extra effort needed in the building and living with the pure vintage stuff.
     
  16. Bingo! I think there are three basic trajectories of "traditional" hot rodding/customizing; "style," "form," and "spirit" (my gloss) with some areas of overlap.

    A traditionally 'styled' rod is one where the overall appearance and feel hearkens back to a specific historical era. A 'styled' rod/custom may have some modern upgrades (on a sliding scale of visibility) but they do not distract/take away from the bigger picture. IMO, this is a car that you'd have to get up close & personal with to notice the 'upgrades'.

    A rod/custom built in traditional 'form' is pretty much 100% era correct. This is a car that uses original, period, or reproduction parts (that are visually and functionally indistinguishable from original) in a combination representative of a specific era and, in many cases, geographical region. Era-correct cars are virtual time capsules.

    The last 'type' is one that we really don't focus on here (but a lot of folks get caught up in)...it's the car built in the spirit of 'traditional' hot rodding/customizing; a build that reflects the ethos of hot rodding/customizing throughout its history - a no holds barred quest for speed, power, and/or 'looks' without much consideration for historical trends, components, or accuracy. I've always considered these builds 'retro-mods'; a hot car that just happens to have an old body.

    Each one has pros & cons; the 'styled' build is really tough to pull off, a balancing act that few can pull off without tipping over into the retro-mod category - despite the breadth of acceptable/available parts. The era-correct build presents the challenge(s) of documenting, locating, and refurbishing period components, but has the advantage of (in many respects) following after a prototype (cars from the period that actually existed).

    While I appreciate the energy, creativity, and sweat-equity invested in each 'type' (I like them all), my personal goal is an era-correct hot rod. For me, three-quarters of the satisfaction is in enjoying the journey...researching cars and the components used in my era of interest (late 30's - early 40's) connects with a personal love and appreciation for history. The many hours of walking swap meets, driving back roads, scouring classifieds, and digging through dusty warehouses/shops to find "the perfect part" is intrinsically rewarding. And the 'finished product' (if I make it that far) will be pretty keen too.

    Where do I draw the line? I have a pretty solid cut-off date of 1942 for all of my components. If originals can be had, that's the direction I go...leaning heavily toward NOS or NORS parts if at all possible. The only reproduction parts I'm using are the steering worm, sector, & upper race; tires & tubes; belts & hoses; engine/transmission fasteners; and a few patch panels awaiting installation on the body. IMO, it's not about being a 'purist' (not sure why I keep seeing that term used)...it's just what I happen to enjoy.
     
    Hitchhiker and Crazy Steve like this.
  17. Good post @gwhite. That defines it all pretty darned good. Thanks!
     
  18. jamesgr81
    Joined: Feb 3, 2008
    Posts: 283

    jamesgr81
    Member

    Traditional is good workmanship. Traditional is craftmanship and performance. Traditional is what separates the rod from the Japanese jelly bean amorphous blobs that people drive today. When a rod drives by people stop and watch, when it parks all ages come over and admire. Us older fellows think back and are reminded of what was, the young guys breathe new life into what was.

    Myself, I love cars. Great workmanship and performance. I have cars from most all the eras, 30's, 50's, 60's, 70's and a new 2014 Camaro. Driving the Camaro makes me realize how far we have come, and how much we have lost.

    I don't give a rats arse about Traditional or not. Traditional was rebuilding wheel cylinders, lapping valves, making parts cause you didn't have the dough to buy new ones. Heading to the junkyard for a transmission and arguing with the guy about the price. Traditional was Clover compound, Missouri Mule radiator stop leak, Butch Wax, RC Cola and Moon Pies. But that was then and nowdays most people don't even know about knurling pistons or freeing up heat risers.

    Some things that were traditional are sorely missed. The local Auto Parts store, the Speed Shop, the Chrome Shop. Now we have mail order and China parts. Other things not. I don't miss decarbonizing engines or filing points, automatic chokes or getting new tires every 10,000 miles.

    Traditional is what we used to do. Hack jobs, bailing wire, rat rods, beaters are not traditional. Billet, lawn chairs and car dusters are not traditional. Lokar is not traditional. Sitting in a roadster that looks like the inside of a Lexus is not traditional, tuck and roll is. Rat Fink lives!
     
    33sporttruck likes this.
  19. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,244

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'd think just owning a Duesenberg is enough. I'll raise a right hand to the fact that there's NOTHING that needs to be done to make it "yours". Fred and August set out to build the best car in the world and in most ways they did. Power brakes, dual overhead cams, and a list too long to compile here that might be a bit boring to the Deuce Hiboy set. "85MPH in 2nd gear..." was a bold claim in 1928.

    I might be less enthused as an owner of someone's kustom from back in the day, regardless of how notable it is. That was them, not me, but I can draw inspiration from it easy enough. I'd rather have a functional historic racer that would trip my senses the same way it did it's original drivers.

    There's something intangible that seems to carry weight on this topic. That seems to be "how" the work is done or indeed "who" does it. My dear departed Dad worked on a dirt floor garage with 2 incandescent lights and a drop cord. No air compressor, no power tools, hand hacksaw and a torch with an eclectic set of wrenches and such. He still managed to get shit built and have fun with it, but guess what? FUCK THAT!!! If he had 1/2 of what I have now he'd have probably been a Motown version of Mickey Thompson. The who, well if it HAD to be the owner only then the likes of Barris, Dean, Jefferies and many more mean nothing. To some that thought might take a second...
     
    Saxman likes this.
  20. brandon
    Joined: Jul 19, 2002
    Posts: 6,368

    brandon
    Member

    Might as well draw that line with water colors....lol
     
  21. I am happy this thread has stayed on track for the most part and I honestly believe there has been some very thought provoking reply's,it seem we all have varying ideas of what is,as Beano called it. " a line in the sand!"

    I drove my deuce pickup to work today,,it's a hot rod.:) HRP
     
  22. My line becomes more wavy as I experience the after effects of injuries, surgeries and aging!

    After 4 back surgeries... I found that I no longer desire manual transmissions!
     
  23. Well fellas I have finally had time to read through this thread. I want to say that I appreciate your candidness. I don't know how many times the report button got hit, I hope not too many. Thanks for not turning this into a drama fest. :cool:

    By the way someone mentioned the rules, most of you were not around when I made my introduction to the HAMB, that dates me doesn't it. Anyway in my introduction I mentioned that I don't give a damn about the rules. None of you should ever make any excuses for being yourself. Do what you do and let the chips fall where they may. ;)
     
    ffr1222k and i.rant like this.
  24. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,934

    squirrel
    Member

    My biggest rule is, "Does it look right?"
     
  25. 64T-bolt
    Joined: Aug 6, 2007
    Posts: 170

    64T-bolt
    Member
    from Kansas

    My line is wavy, to the point that I will use vintage and oem, when practical, and then I revert to staying with the "spirit" of the build, and then I revert to "what would my grandpa Miller have used?".. He woulda have used whatever he could scrounge up..

    Ultimately, I do this for my enjoyment of a era gone by, that I missed. If I have to use an alternator or electric fuel pump, my enjoyment is not affected, and I don't care if a traditionalist is offended. That being said, I'll use neither, if I can get away with it.. Just a case by case deal. I also won't jeopardize safety of my family, or others on the roads to be traditional..

    About the only thing I consider absolutely untraditional, is making old shit new.. IRS, IFS, AC, PS, billet shit, EFI, etc etc..
     
  26. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Just a thought. What really is traditional ? Are we totally off base in our thinking that a traditional hot rod is one that is stuck in or limited to a particular period in our hobby (or lifestyle -passion's) history ?

    Or is it traditional now as it was then to improve our hot rods with whatever new parts and tech is available to us just as the hot rodders did back in the days we seem to covet as being the golden and "traditional" days of hot rodding.

    It's just something to ponder.
    I wonder if the guys who were building the hot rods way back when were as hung up on "lines in the sand" and tradition and the like.

    I think they were more concerned with what they could do to go fast and improve their rides.

    Like I said earlier, the sand shifts and blows around far too much for me to draw any lines, and my taste in things automotive is too diverse to be restricted to one little sand box :D

    Edit: Please don't go off on a tangent trying to describe what a traditional hot rod is, or what the purpose of the HAMB is.
    I'm well aware of all that.

    Just something to ponder on is all :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  27. Ulu
    Joined: Feb 26, 2014
    Posts: 1,775

    Ulu
    Member
    from CenCal

    IMO, The main thing that guided the decisions of the early rodders was economics. You built the best thing you could afford, considering what skills and resources were available; and judging by photos of what most built, the money was pretty scarce.

    Every "tradition" we honor here by spending tens of thousands and countless hours of labor is almost entirely based on what guys with $50 or $100 could cobble together from junk in a couple weekends.

    That fact really amazes me.
     
    denis4x4 likes this.
  28. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yup, we are going to the ends of the Earth, spending unimaginable sums, all to replicate what was done by the near-broke, of a time which has passed.
     
    Ulu likes this.
  29. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,188

    clem
    Member

    Best comment so far !
     
  30. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,025

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    I recently came across a quote of G. K. Chesterton to the effect that the popular notion that one cannot turn back the clock is erroneous. A clock is a human artefact, and the human finger can set it to whatever time one chooses. Just so, arrangements of culture and society are things made by humans and therefore changeable by humans. We need to ask ourselves who really benefits from the idea that such things cannot be determined by ourselves but only by "the times".

    By "traditional" we are trying to make a distinction between two kinds of things, one of which we like and the other of which we don't. The interesting question is, what exactly is that distinction?

    It reminds me of the emergence of the term "Vintage" out of the change in mind-set between the Bentleys made by W. O. Bentley up to 1930 and those made by Rolls-Royce thereafter. The difference is quite clear, formally, culturally, economically, morally, and it is far broader than Bentley. Vintage is a different way of thinking from post-Vintage, and if I had a few hours I could unpack exactly how that different is.
     
    Ulu likes this.

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