has anyone run a set of 4 x 48 IDA webers up on a flathead? would it be feasible? are there any good reasons why i shouldn't waste any time on the idea? what are your thoughts on it?
Physically I think 2 48 ida's end to end are longer than available space on a flat motor. On top of that, depending on which venturis you run, 48 ida's flow somewhere between 250 - 300 cfm each. 1000 cfm + is WAY too much for a flat head. For comparison 97's flow about 140cfm each!
I know here in the states I would have to take out a loan on my house to buy just a pair. That seems like a pretty good reason not to in my book!
shop for a used pair at www.thesamba.com As long as the accerator pump ramp isn't completely worn out, throttle shafts can be re-bearing'ed (not the case on most Weber carbs, but on the 48 IDA's they can be) butterflies that are out of true can be replaced, there is even a company called EMPI (not really any relation to the old VW Speed Equipment manufacturer) that makes them in a 51.5 mm configuration now...Since the repops came out a few years back, the price of the original "Italian Stallions" has dropped somewhat
EMPI does have a direct link to the original - Mr. Bug, bought the rights to EMPI from Joe Vittone after the closure by Lee Filters who had previously bought EMPI from the Vittone's. Emil (Mr. Bug) also owns the Auto Haus, Race Trim and Truehaft product lines ( I was a manger for the original Auto Haus stores) so while it's not as cool as the old Riverside EMPI it is related. Also can you really call the current 48's "repops" when they are made by Weber USA (after 10 years out of production). More like newer versions from a definitely related company. At least that the way I interpret this stuff
Baron Racing - Weber IDFs or flange compatible throttle bodies. IDAs are physically too big and I have not come across a 48 IDA intake manifold for the flathead.
hotroddon, what I meant was, that back then, according to Joe Vittone himself (yes, I am a close friend of his) Empi Means Product Integrity something Mr. Emil Weldon, of the current EMPI, could learn a lot about. Have you ever bought, or tried to fit, or make work, or last, any of the current line of EMPI products? The Weber 48 IDA's that came out a few years back, imported by Interco of New York, were made in Spain, NOT Italy. The brand new offerings from The current EMPI, both the 48 and 51.5's, I have no idea where they are made, but I'll bet you it isn't Italy... So, yes, in some respects, you are correct, Joe sold EMPI to Lee Eliminators/Division of Filter Dynamics, Inc in 1972, who then, in turn, sold it to the current owner(s) I speak to Joe every now and again, and Darrell, as well. Joe lives in FL now, and even at age 86, is still sharp as a tack, and can recite the home phone of the guy that ran the parts counter at Economotors in 1967, by memory.... I used to shop at Autohaus, Johnny's Speed and Chrome, & Small Car Specialties ( Man, their Showdown shows with the bikini contests..wowwowowWOW) and worked for both the American VW Magazines, both the deceased one, and the one still in publication, been playing with the air-coolers since the night I watched Darrell Vittone spank a hemi-Cuda with the Inch Pincher at OCIR...
When you're talking about individual runner carburetion what you'd normally think is too much carburetion just isn't. I ran a pair of 48s on an 1835cc VW street engine, that's 112 cubes with two 583 cfm carbs on it. Had very smooth low-end and made good power from 1800 RPM all the way to 7000. How can that be, 1000 cfm on a stinkin' VW 4-banger? Individual runner manifolds, one carb barrel feeding one cylinder, the rules are completely different with IR manifolding. The AC Cobra had four of 'em on a 289 and those four 48mm carbs could barely handle the airflow that the little 289 required. Not over-carbed even running the largest venturies available (45mm) for the 48IDA, for those unfamiliar these very tuneable carbs used removeable venturies available in sizes from 32mm to 45mm. Over 2000cfm on a 289, it works. If you ran these 4 carbs dumping into a common plenum (like on a tunnel ram) instead of letting one carb throat only feed one cylinder (individual runner) then you'd be waaay overcarbed. The Webers are designed to be used on IR intake setups, not on a dual-plane or single-plane type intake. A well-built flatty could run quite well with 4 of the Weber 44DCNF-series carbs (DCNF have carb barrels cloesly paired like a 'regular 2-barrel' unlike IDA carbs) on an IR intake. Not only do these IR intake setups have incredible low-end response and of course great top-end, they also get great gas mileage. As long as you're not tromping on the throttle and using a full shot from all eight acellerator pumps all the time you'll pull some very good mileage numbers.
You are right that the company isn't anywhere near what it was originally. And I didn't mean to slight Joe or Darryl, or build up Emil for that matter. I agree he has somewhat devalued the brand compared to the original. The current 48 IDA's are made by WeberUSA, the same Weber plant that makes Edelbrock's carbs. Same as the Italian? No. Good quality? Yes from the set I have used! By the way I worked for Auto Haus when we started VW Trends through McMullin pub. It really was just a mouthpiece for the Rosevear's companies in the beginning, complete with a mini Auto Haus catalog in the center Do we know each other ?
Ha Ha LMAO !! " Dave ? Nah man Daves not here !" " No No its me ! Dave" "I told you man Daves not here !" Still Smokin .
Loveoftiki If this is Matt, with "Big Bad Orange" that took me on the wild ride through Michigan with "Corny" to your house for the Barbecue, I believe it was after Auburn Hills (or was it Milan? I forget..) when I shot John Plow's car, and watched John's wife Kathy Starsky and Hutch side Corny's Sedan into a parking slot, (giving Corny a heart attack) then yes, this is Dave lol We might know each other, hotroddon, I worked for the Magazines, VWT from 1997-2001, then HVWs from 2001-2005, then I semi-retired into a brand new paid off Ocean View (538 feet from the salt water, oh yeah, and about 100 feet down, too, lol) 2,300 sq.ft. home in the redwoods of NorCal. Kept the Oval sunroof with the 78.4x90.5 2017cc, Performance Technology "Simpson Special" heads, DMS crank, Engle FK-89 cam, blah blah blah, with the "Real Deal Italian IDAs... 3rd progression hole, and it idles like a stocker, and pulls from 19 to 90 in 3rd with no cough, sputter, nothing, just pulls.... PS, Matt, tell that Corn Panzy Conklin to e-mail me sometime....
Hey Dave. It's you ,too cool. Old Orange is in Norway now. I still talk to Dave on a regular basis. Good to see you are still around. Do you miss the So Cal lifestyle? Are you in Nor-Cal or Oregon? Good Fishing these days? PM Me would love to catch up. See yas
1997? Hell I was out of the V Dub bus. by 1978 LOL Did have a Baja Bug in 90 with a 2180 Okrasa roller, old set of FF heads, Engle 150, Eye-tal-ian 48's, Berg manifolds/Empi linkage (or was it Empi manifolds/Berg linkake?) etc. Hewland 5 speed box and it would lift the front wheels no problem. Scared a lot of water pumpers with that one - then it scattered big time pre running in Mexico, the roller really didn't like all that dirt. Last vw for me.
Not 48s, but webers. No personal exp. but looks like Pierce has lots of manifolds, carbs and parts. http://www.piercemanifolds.com/
I attended my first Bug-in at OCIR back in '75. Terrorized the streets with my 1835cc '66 Bug with a 'glass flip front end in '78. Built a '69 Squareback (black enamel with 14X5-1/2 Porsche alloys) with a '64 Buick 225 V6 hanging off a KEP adapter back in '79. Worked at the Van Nuys Auto Haus in '83. The good ol' days. Still own a velvet green '66 Type II pickup (had it since '85) equipped with NOS safari windows and a factory 'covered wagon' canvas top over the bed.
That's good tech and a good read. Thanks. I've been thinking about fitting a 48 IDA to a four banger that has siamezed ports 1+2 and then 3+4, will the same IR theory apply? A single runner from each 48mm barrel to feed two cylinders?
Seems kinda weird to be responding to someone in the U.K. about this, but there have been about a gazillion 5 port (2-I / 3-E) BMC engines (spridgets, B's, A's, minis) running a side draft weber sucessfully for many years.
Yeah, I appreciate the irony! My only real-time experience of A-series engines was with SU carbs, and though I'd heard about them running a 40DCOE, I'd never spoken to anyone about running them. The theory is the same between the two engines then, I guess. Hmm....food for thought indeed. I reckon a 48 IDA would look pretty good on a flathead four-banger.
As someone pointed out, if this is to be an IR setup normal CFM calculations are out the window. For starting points on thinking, look for an older discussion on 4-carb flatheads involving Flatdog (FD experience and theory both seem to indicate that on a flathead overcarbed by a triple, a quad might be too small...) AND get Dave Vizard's carburetion book covering a build of a 4 carb (some kind of Weber clone...Mikuni?) Chevy built as a low-rpm truck motor...fascinating story. THese still might be too much, but not by nearly as much most would believe!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164109&highlight=ir&showall=1 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209771&highlight=ir&showall=1
I have one of these small webbers on my Tee. Works great. Plan to run two on my next car I am building. In fact I taking the manifold over to Piearce this comming weekend...
I know this is an old thread, but I have started to work on an intake setup for my french flathead. We'll see where it goes. Carb spacing on the Edelbrock intake is 4 3/4", same as the IDA choke centerlines. I will let Jim Inglese work out the jetting and chokes, since this does have a common plenum and not a true IR setup. The plenum passages are no bigger than my thumb, but they do run the entire length. Alternator is mopar, adapted to stock generator mount.
That is a cool setup Big Duece. Let us know how the tuning ends up. This was posted in the Rare Flathead Intakes Thread. Side draft Webers on what looks like an IR manifold. Interesting information in this old thread though.
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