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Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Joshua Shaw, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 985

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Thanks for the confirmation, Michael.

    As for Wally, in addition to all of his sprint and midget racing, he also made a short lived Indycar attempt in 1981. He entered both Riverside and Phoenix late that year driving an ancient Kingfish for his previously mentioned car owner Norm Hall. I think mechanical problems sidelined them both times before they could qualify.
     
  2. jim bray
    Joined: Feb 24, 2015
    Posts: 1

    jim bray

    The car that Roberts drove in 1939 was a 2 front spring car. The car that Floyd Davis won with in 1941 (with help from Rose) was a transverse front spring car. Both Wetteroth cars. I think that the Roberts car was rebuilt and driven and owned by Cliff Bergere with help from previous owner Lou Moore. I think the car was entered in the 1947 500 with Bergere's wife as the owner. This car was on the pole for the 1947 Indy 500. If there any pictures of the car shown with the drivers mentioned it may be seen what front spring setup it had. My guess is that it may be the 1941 500 winner as Bergere ran the 2 front spring car at Indy in 1947 as mentioned
     
  3. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 813

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Yes, Roberts drove the '38 winner in '39, but he was co-owner of the new car. The older Moore car (with the two front springs) was bought by Bergere in 1941, and raced pretty much unchanged until 1946 when it sat on pole at Indy (not '47). Bergere then sold the car to Bill Corley of Michigan, who entered it for Duke Nalon at Langhorne, but George Robson was looking for a dirt ride to challenge for the National Championship and got the seat, only to crash fatally at Lakewood in September. The engine was then put into Corley's other car, Kelly Petillo's 1935 Indy winner rebuilt into a single-seater, and the three-spring Moore was apparently retired. Legend has it that it was buried somewhere, but this has been refuted - it may even have raced again with another engine.

    The car in the picture is the two-spring Moore, the '41 Speedway winner.
     
  4. racer5c
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 2,218

    racer5c
    Member

    Jerry Miller In Norm Hall's Champ Dirt Car Norm in white hat norm hall.jpg
     
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  5. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Iron Duke and "Poison Lil" nal-1.JPG nal-2.jpg nal-3.jpg
     
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  6. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 5,369

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Judging from the position of the wishbone and the drag link and maybe no front panard bar I'll bet that car had a lot of bump steer. Maybe a handful to drive?
     
  7. 29 Speedster
    Joined: Aug 2, 2011
    Posts: 197

    29 Speedster
    Member
    from Colorado

    Would it be common for the left front Radius Rod to be shorter (Inch and a half) than the right side on a solid front axle car? Would it aid the front end geomentry? Like making the left side wheelbase shorter under braking?

    Sorry if this is a dumb question?
     
  8. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    No, in my experience, that isn't common. About the only reason I can think of would be axle lead (and 1-1/2" would be waay much) or to induce roll steer and that is usually done through the rear axle.
     
  9. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    A car with a long and interesting history. Built for Duke Randall in 1950 by the Faminghetti bros. with Kuzma body work and with Randall's MoPar 6 cyl. from his track roadster. Mainly driven by Cal Niday on the west coast in 1951. In 1952 the MoPar was replaced with a Offy and was taken back east with Bob Denny driving but with little success. It was sold in 1953 to Troy Ruttman and Aggie and sponsored by Emmett Malloy and was sometimes refered to as the 'white' Malloy. In 1954 Ruttman sold it to Hank Lammers who named it the La Villa Spl. with Pat O'Conner up and they, of course, had much success with it. Lammers sold off the car in 1956 and it continued to bounce around the midwest with several owners/drivers until about 1960 when it disappeared. It resurfaced in the mid 60s back on the west coast with the CRA where it ran until the early 70s when it was wrecked and retired. A few years later it was found and with, then, unknown history it was restored genericly. rand-1.JPG rand-2.jpg rand-3.jpg rand-4.jpg
     
  10. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

  11. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 985

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Everett Saylor and the Pop Dreyer built car with which he had won the 1937 CSRA Championship. Before he went racing he was a school teacher. He had just rebuilt the car and didn't have time for paint. Saylor drove in the 1941 Indianapolis 500 before being killed in a Missouri big car crash on May 31, 1942 in what was likely one of the very last auto races held before the government banned racing because of the war. I believe this car still exists and was restored to its championship configuration by Saylor's friend Mutt Anderson.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  12. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 5,369

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Nice photos Rootie. Do you know the year those photos were taken? The reason I ask is that I see the #2 car on the pole had a head rest on the bustle.

    Maybe '40ish based on the cars in the parking lot?
     
  13. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I don't know the exact year. My best guess of the pic with the #2 car would be immediate post war, and it may well be Duke Dinsmore's car from that time period. dinsmore.JPG
     
  14. Rootie.....you are my hero....I check in each day to see what you have to share with us...I love the stories,the photos,and the love you have for this sport.....and as I've said many times before on here,this is all new to me,but since I joined in 2009,this has been my Bible,and your contribution to my ''learning'' has been second to none....thank you so much...you are a friend and gentleman sir...
     
  15. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 985

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Not sure about all of them but the Everett Saylor photo was taken on May 7, 1939. That was the season opener for Jungle Park that year and it was a CSRA race.
     
  16. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    You're quite welcome. It's certainly been a fun learning experience for me too.
     
  17. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    There was a time when the "hills" of the Midwest included Fort Wayne Speedway. Don't know much about the history of the track or have come across many pics. but it looks like it was a pretty fast joint. Capture fw-1.JPG Capture fw-2.JPG Capture fw-3.JPG
     
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  18. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 5,369

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    Such amazing photos. I am transfixed studying all the details of the cars and the tracks.
    Relating to my previous question on headrests, I wonder if any (single seat) car was built with an asymmetric tail section, much like many windshields were built asymmetrically, biased toward the inside, so as to help turn the car to the left, much like the rudder on a "aeroplane"?
     
  19. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I think the main reason windshields were offset is that before shoulder harnesses came about the drivers used a lot of body english and a tilted windshield help protect them. I've never figured out why, back in the day, headrest tails became the norm on upright cars in the first place. They really serve no purpose as the drivers head is usually nowhere near them. Seems like a lot of extra work for no real purpose other than asthetics.
     
  20. racer chaser
    Joined: Dec 25, 2012
    Posts: 143

    racer chaser
    Member
    from indiana

    Rootie..Here are some photo id's for your Welcome to the Jungle..1st photo was taken May 7, 1939. Clay Corbitt #22 and Buddie Rusch #7 Iddings Special....4th photo was takenOct 5, 1941. AAA race..Duk Nalon won the 25 lap feature..Tony Bettenhausen 2nd..Duke Dinsmore 3rd
     
  21. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 5,369

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

    he
    Yup. I get the body english and offset of the windshield to aid a driver leaning into the curve. Like you suggest, what good does it do when the driver's head is not in alignment with the headrest much of the race. Studying head-on views of modern NASCAR rides, the asymmetry of body panels is visually evident. I just was wondering if that sort of offset body morphing was done then. Just between us girls it would not have been "visually pleasing"' much like the NASCAR blobs.

    I think headrests were copied from aircraft of the day, e.g. The Gee Bee racer.

     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015
  22. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 4,335

    s55mercury66
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    from SW Wyoming

  23. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I suspect Smokey was probably the first to try getting "creative" with air flow management among the traditional oval racers. yun-1.jpg
     
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  24. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    The last Wetteroth built champ car to run with the AAA was the Elkins 38. Pretty archaic even by 1952 champ car standards it was able to pull off a couple of mid pack finishes that season. 3-5-a.jpg 3-5-b.JPG
     
  25. BZNEIL
    Joined: May 28, 2005
    Posts: 660

    BZNEIL
    Member

    Rootie, your pics and history lessons are amazing! Thank you so much!!

    I have question about the last rear shot of the 38. It appears to have a pan hard bar on the rear. It seems to be connected to the rear end near the spring shackle on the outside but looks to connect back to the rear end housing on the inside. I assume the frame near the spring perch has something that drops down for it to connect to. It must not have a traditional quick change either with that rather flat rear spring .

    Back to a post from a couple days ago the head rest on the 83 is also interesting as it is very minimal. I never thought of the history of the headrest but is is interesting as to why it cam about. I assumed it had something to do with so many fabricators having ties to the aircraft industry and some of the the early WWII planes had functional headrest. I have seen a couple shots of some early F1 cars that had headrest actually behind the head so maybe that had some influence. It is silly to do all that extra metal work for a head rest a foot below the drivers head.
     
  26. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    I blew it up and it does look to be a panhard bar. The second shot is the rear of Kelly Petillo's Wetteroth Speedway car from 41 and shows the spring crossmember on that car. I assume the #38 is similar.
    3-5-c.JPG 3-5-d.JPG
     
  27. indyrjc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2008
    Posts: 985

    indyrjc
    Member
    from Indiana

    Aesthetics aside an old timer once told me that "headrests" on race cars were the first small step toward roll bars. Since they usually did end up having some kind of tubing reinforcement added to the frame at the front for mounting it might have given a driver that got upside down a little more of a safety zone. And considering how much a driver could either hunker down or lean to the side with no shoulder harnesses (or sometimes even no seat belt) there might be something to that theory. They even started showing up at Indianapolis and cars like the ex-Shaw Maserati had one added when racing resumed after WWII.
     
  28. unassembled
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 132

    unassembled
    Member
    from San Diego

    Hi All - One of the downsides of the headrest was that metal hoop that supposed to help. My mentor told me back in 1964 the he always cut the hoop off, modified the tail at the headrest, and stuffed the upholstery with lots of additional foam. He was always concerned that most of the drivers that died were actually victims of the hoop, because of the basal skull fractures they created as their heads whipped around. I remember that a couple of other cars at Ascot were modified in this way, but I don't know how widespread this practice was. The boss ran a 2-4 midget team during the 50s and 60s and all of his cars had this modification.
     
  29. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 5,369

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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    from FRENCHTOWN

  30. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Some time back while researching the 58 Riverside 500 open wheel race I came across a pic of a nice looking old rail frame that caught my eye. Come to find out that it lives at the Canepa museum nowdays and then was able to come up with some earlier pics. A bunch of good recent pics and some history can be found here: http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar/sprint_1/index.html
    bal-1.jpg bal-2.JPG bal-3.JPG bal-3-a.JPG bal-4.JPG
     
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