Register now to get rid of these ads!

the dangers of urethane paint

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by the SCROUNGER, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA

  2. Kona Cruisers
    Joined: Feb 4, 2007
    Posts: 994

    Kona Cruisers
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    dude enough already. I got your point.
     
  3. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,957

    SlowandLow63
    Member
    from Central NJ

    Ditto. We get that you got bit by the stuff. We're happy your OK.

    We really don't need you to preach anymore.
     
  4. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,964

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey ,

    I'd say keep posting 'till YOU get tired of it!!!!!!

    If this and the other post saves even one guys ass, it's probably the most valuable post on this board in some time!

    Most younger guys commin' up figger "it will never happen to me"! that things like this always happen to somebody else, 'till they don't!

    They may not remember your post, but maybe they'll remember your zeal!

    I don't have any "old" painter friends left, living!

    Swankey Devils c.c.
    "Meanwhile, back aboard The Tainted Pork"
     
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. 3Mike6
    Joined: Jan 2, 2007
    Posts: 704

    3Mike6
    Member

    Good info.

    I noticed on the MSDS you posted it cleary states that if you "DO NOT SPRAY, BAKE,ETC", then you can use a charcoal mask.

    So, I assume (because of Eastwoods site) you thought you could spray it?
     
  6. Kona Cruisers
    Joined: Feb 4, 2007
    Posts: 994

    Kona Cruisers
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    ok I have to say this In this age of "Right to know", OSHA, EPA, and the fact the the label on the paint can said TO BE USED BY PROFESSIONALS ONLY that well not my problem. people that dont use the correct PPE are freakn Tards. Sorry. Now again I am sorry you had your problems.
    For instance don't bitch to me about flash burn cuase " I was just tacking it together"

    People that dont educate themselfs about safety for the tools and products they use get NO sympathy from me.
    Again.. How many people have a MSDS at home. I do

    PPE= PERSONAL protective equipment... your own responsibilty

    your at home no boss to blame no company to blame.

    again get well soon. I hope you do feel better.
     
  7. PBR Allstar
    Joined: Sep 15, 2004
    Posts: 363

    PBR Allstar
    Member

    I'm glad it got posted again, I've never delt with urethane but I've been thinking about playing with the kustom shop stuff and this is making me think twice about it without a fresh air suit. Mainly just because I didn't know any different. I've sprayed quite a bit of enamel, but urethane seems quite a bit more toxic?
     
  8. ttarver
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 414

    ttarver
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from austin

    I have thought about using Hot Rod Flatz in the past and it looks like they are urethane too. I had no idea this shit was so brutal!
     
  9. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA


    listen pal- I'm a college educated person with 2 degrees, one of them is in AUTOMOTIVE TECHNOLOGY- I've been wrenching on cars now for 25 years- and had my own shop for 12. I've built more engines than you'll live to see in your life- and have been involved with painting for 25 years. I've built cars from the frame up in my own back yard. The last IQ test I took scored a 130 on it, that's top 2% of the population in rank- in comparison, you can't even SPELL the English language. Your reply is enough to make any spellchecker go into fucking overload.

    so no, people who get bit by this urethane shit are not "tards"- had you read the other thread, you'd see how 3M and Eastwood concealed and confused the critical safety information. The can says one thing, 3M says another and the MSDS sheets say yet another. I researched it and was craftily misled by 3M and Eastwood- because I thought both were standup American companies and thought I could trust them.

    when you buy the paint, you only get the CAN LABEL warnings. You don't get any other information- until after you have a problem, and start researching it further. You don't get the MSDS sheets with the paint. If you did, no one would use the paint in their right mind, after reading them.

    saying "professional use only" is no excuse- then why the fuck are they dumping this paint on the market dirt cheap now, and shipping it to residential addresses ? If some 2 year old breathes this overspray and DIES, what do you think the judge/jury is going to do to Eastwood and 3M and the paint mfr., whoever that is ?

    they'd get sued to death.

    there's been multiple lawsuits already over this shit, and the paint companies lose- but the plaintiffs are under a gag order after the settlements, so they can't divulge the details.

    there's way to control stuff like this- for instance, when you buy a GUN, it has to be shipped to a FFL holder, for the transfer-

    yet anyone can buy this lethal paint, even a 14 year old using him mom's credit card and ordering it on Ebay

    and I bought this fucking paint on EBAY from Eastwood

    the scientific community looked at this paint and stateds, it's not safe to use under any circumstances- and the best way to avoid getting dosed with the iso's, is use another paint- people using fresh air hoods are even getting sick and sensitized now- what about that ??

    I don't want to sue anyone for a nickel, I'd rather just have my health back- but I want to get the word out this paint is dangerous to all the other hot rodders- without a high-dollar spray booth, supplied air respirator, and space suit- no one should use it.

    they made the urethane dirt cheap so people would stop buying straight enamel and use the urethane- at one time this paint was $300-400 a gallon- what happened ?

    now they are flooding the market with urethane for only $90/gallon to your door- and they'll ship it anywhere, business or residence-I talked to a 73 year old painter last night who's retired, and he painted cars for 50 years with lacquer and enamel- I told him this paint that used to be $200-400/gallon is now only $90, his exact words were:

    "yeh, that's because no one wants to buy it or spray it anymore, it's too hazardous to use- eventually they'll have to stop making it, that stuff is too dangerous- when that first happens to you it's scary (in reference to being sensitized to iso's), you get allergic to the chemical in the paint- just like being allergic to peanuts, if you then eat a peanut it can kill you- don't paint anymore, stay in the clean air"
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  10. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA


    you got that right, what they don't tell you is, urethane is "acid cured"- the "catalyst" containing "iso's" is a fancy name for sulfuric acid, nitric acid, formaldehyde (Raid bug spray ingredient), and phosgene (WWI military gas agent) mixed with the paint, to make it harden. What you have is an ACID MIST just like mixing bleach and ammonia and while it's reacting, spraying it into an aerosol, like a gas chamber. It's DEADLY. It burns your lungs and gets right past charcoal filter masks, and in about 1 hour the charcoal mask stops working.

    the "catalyst" is an ACID- plain and simple

    if you don't have a professional high dollar downdraft spray booth with water in the floor, and a complete space suit with supplied air respirator- then DON'T USE URETHANE- AT ALL

    the overspray must also be captured, it can go downwind and hurt kids, people, pets, etc. in their homes or business

    I'm getting better now, but when it first happened, about 3 days later it felt like I drank bleach and it went in my lungs- your lungs burn and you can't stop the pain- I was taking 6-8 motrin a day just to ease that up a little

    and I'm still not recovered yet fully

    for anyone reading this, if you have been dosed- go to Walmart, get a bottle of garlic geltabs, take 2 at night, 2 in the morning- they boost your heart/respiratory system against the iso damage and help repair it- also get EQUATE 1-a-day vitamins- and eat a bag of dried cut peaches per day, Sun Maid brand- these natural meds have greatly improved my condition over the past 9 days. The peaches are loaded with fiber and potassium, and keep clearing your gut out

    one of the worst effects is, stomach gut spasms causing excessive pain/gas- you can't eat normally
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  11. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA



    no, what it says is, if you have adequate ventilation and the levels in the air are not too high, then you can use charcoal mask for 1 hour

    which is a bullshit statement, because how are you going to measure the ISO levels in the air, without test strips and a high dollar meter to monitor air quality ? That meter alone would cost $15,000, more than a spray booth

    they are merely covering their ass with that statement

    it also says use charcoal mask elsewhere in the MSDS, with no qualifications or disclaimers- that is downright dangerous- it implies one is protected by a charcoal mask- truth is, charcoal mask does not protect against iso's, the iso goes right through them

    I called 3M respirator tech line, they told me this, here's the email- and I used the mask/filters they recommended- they also told me break the job down into parts, spray it outside, which I did- guess what, it still didn't protect me

    I suggest you read the other thread in completion, to understand what really happened

    ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:34 AM
    Subject: Re: respirator/cartridges for spraying urethane paints w/isocyanate hardeners ? >

    >
    > 3M generally recommends an organic vapor cartridge with a 95 class particle
    > prefilter for spraying paints and coatings, including those containing
    > isocyanates. The 3M 7500 Series Respirator (7501/7502/7503 for S/M/L) with
    > the 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge, 5P71 P95 Prefilter and 501 Retainer is
    > suggested. This assembly offers protection up to 10X the OSHA PEL. Attached
    > is a product file. Additional information, including where to buy, may be
    > found on our website at www.mmm.com/Occsafety
    >
    > Regards,
    >
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  12. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,540

    zman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Garner, NC


    Hmmm.... and you didn't know that this paint was dangerous? Dude, calm the fuck down already, there are lots of dangerous things we have to deal with everyday. Hell people are still using Moth Balls and they're super dangerous too. You go off about how smart you are and how long you've been doing this and that makes you look pretty silly to just be finding out about things like this.
     
  13. CHOPSHOP
    Joined: Jun 26, 2005
    Posts: 1,920

    CHOPSHOP
    Member
    from Malden,MA


    Dude- I feel your pain.
    I know people think you are beating a dead horse here but I cant say enough about using the proper masks etc for ANY painting.

    After 25 years , Ive developed severe isocyanate allergies: I'm not supposed to paint.(I love it too much to stop..:eek:.)

    I have asthma that is related to the years of painting without masks (which we all did back in the 80's) using badly ventilated home garages before I had a proper spray booth and shop etc etc etc. I now use a professional fresh air system to paint in a porperly ventilated 4 year old booth .

    I wake every morning hacking like a TB patient and have to take 3 different meds just to be able to breathe.

    I am hoping the young guns (OK- younger than me) here read the thread and understand - follow the guidelines-Hell- go overboard and OVER protect if you arent sure or if you r chest feels tight when you stop painting. Wwear a freash air system/mask /whatever to protect your lungs .

    You cant just go to the local Wal Mart and get a new pair.
     
  14. 3Mike6
    Joined: Jan 2, 2007
    Posts: 704

    3Mike6
    Member

    I don't want to seem like I'm arguing with you, but go back to the original thread and re-read the scanned copy you inserted, it states (on post #79...I have to paraphrase it, I suck at uploads)

    Where :"MDI is not sprayed.......then an organic filter....for up to 1 hour"

    Which leads me to believe that the ony time you can use a non-freshair supplied mask with the paint is if it's rolled on or dipped?

    I assume the scan came from the MSDS?
     
  15. henryj429
    Joined: Jan 18, 2007
    Posts: 976

    henryj429
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Here's another perspective:

    If you expect to get a decent paint job on your car, then its essential that you have proper ventillation in your painting area. If you try to paint in a closed room you are:
    1. Going to get a shitty paint job because you can't see what you're doing.
    2. Increasing the health risk by 10 times or more because of the increased vapor concentration.

    Do your car and yourself a favor - paint in a properly ventilated area. I use a $20 yard sale squirrel cage blower and some furnace filters placed in openings in the ceiling and it works great.

    Also, a lot of people our doing our hobby a disservice here. By not using proper safety equipment an then complaining about the health effects from "cheap urethane paint" virtually guarantees that that paint will be banned for individual use and we'll be stuck with expensie paint that lays down like latex wall paint.
     
  16. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 17,789

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The last paragraph pretty well sums it up. Too many people are a bit too careless and or don't understand or follow the safety instructions.

    I've seen more than one case where the guy sprayed catalyzed paint in the attached garage on his house and made his family sick in the process.

    The guy I was planning on having paint the truck just quit doing paint and body work due to 20+ years of being exposed to the the stuff in body and paint shops. He is one of my former students who preached safety from the day he walked into the highschool auto shop as a sophomore. He grew up in a garage/bodyshop and wrecking yard.

    In my book there is no such thing as preaching safety too much and one has to remember that we have new guys showing up every day who have never had any training of any kind (including safety) on paint work who are attempting it for the first time.
     
  17. Ole don
    Joined: Dec 16, 2005
    Posts: 2,843

    Ole don
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I married my current wife in 1988. I helped her burry her younger brother in 1989. He was 35, three kids. He didnt read the words on the back of the can. If you cant read, dont buy the product.
     
  18. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,957

    SlowandLow63
    Member
    from Central NJ

    I'm all about safety when it comes to painting, don;t get me wrong. And it is best to inform people on the dangers of certain solvents and chemicals in relation to the paint they are using. But we have a whole nother thread with 5 pages of tech sheets and msds and opinions. No need to add another thread, the point has been made. Give it up. You can't force feed people safety information. The info is out there.

    You can lead a horse to water...

    We are at the god damn water, you've done your job.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  19. Von Dago
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 477

    Von Dago
    Member
    from New Jersey

    Making me think more and more about lacquer.
    (And I know you still have to take precautions even with that.)
     
  20. HR Classic Cars
    Joined: Aug 11, 2008
    Posts: 309

    HR Classic Cars
    Member
    from Wylie, TX

    Actually using any PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) is always a tough thing to achieve with most people.

    I buy a full set of PPE's for each and every employee, from goggles to gloves to masks to full welding leathers and helmets (we don't paint) and after a few months and numerous reminders lot's of the stuff sits unused somewhere around their toolbox.. they just don't want to bother and when you ask, it get's in the way, the welding leathers are too hot, I can't see well with the goggles, the grinder won't throw pieces in my face, I don't need the facemask.. and what ever else.

    I've seen friend get sick from paint and I've had the doctor give me that dreaded line "you've got (skin) cancer" I use my safety gear religiously and I still won't paint or use most solvents.. Warm soapy water with some added elbow grease cleans away any dirt.

    Or in other words, you can warn people, tell them what could happen and give them every opportunity to use the right gear but if they don't want to listen they won't until something happens to them.
     
  21. CHOPSHOP
    Joined: Jun 26, 2005
    Posts: 1,920

    CHOPSHOP
    Member
    from Malden,MA

    EXACTLY :) Leave the professional stuff to the professionals.

    And as for having your employees 'just not use the stuff you give them and dont want to bother with it', I tell my employees they are welcomed to NOT use the PPE I give them- but then they would be unemployed. Its that simple- you are the boss- its YOUR liability.
     
  22. Fatstang
    Joined: Oct 11, 2002
    Posts: 215

    Fatstang
    Member

    I got to say, this is one subject that really needs to be known about. I got bit the first and only time I used a paint product with isocyanates. It wasn't a urethane either but a RUST PREVENTIVE paint sold on line. Label only had the product name and NO warnings what-so-ever. Even if it had said, it contained isocyanates, it would not have meant anything to me, at the time. After the effects of my exposure I was able to find a MSDS for the product on line. I won't both to post it but I learned my lesson to ALWAYS READ THE MSDS BEFORE USING ANY CHEMICAL PRODUCT FOR THE FIRST TIME.
    * Exposure time and environment. < 3 hrs outdoors
    * PPE used. Particle mask. (I should have know better but figured, I'm outside...how bad can it be?)
    * Exposure time to effects. 7 hours.
    * Effects. Physically - High fever alternating with chills. Mentally - I COULDN'T REMEMBER MY NAME. I WAS A VEGETABLE for the next 24 hours. It scared the B-Jesus out of me. It took me 72 hours to fully recover (actual recovery of my mental capacity is still in dispute in some circles).

    Isocyanates is some bad stuff.
    I WOULD RATHER JACKOFF A MOUNTAIN LION WITH A WIRE BRUSH THEN BE WITHIN 5 MILES OF THIS SHIT!
     
  23. JRODHOTROD
    Joined: Mar 23, 2006
    Posts: 442

    JRODHOTROD
    Member
    from Manor, TX

    Thank you! I was not aware of this.
     
  24. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA


    well said.

    I returned 2 gallons of this stuff and got my money back, about $170.

    I'm improving daily, but can't even be around a car running that has a slightly rich carb, like a race car- or my chest starts burning and gets tight

    I'm still not as sharp and alert as I used to be, and it's been 2 weeks since I was hit with iso's

    the kicker is, I was using a new charcoal mask w/prefilters, and goggles, painters sock cap, gloves- and was painting outside- and still got hit with it

    I had 3 partial leftover bottles of catalyst for synthetic/acrylic enamel from old paint jobs, and a can of polyurethane spar varnish for wood, even the varnish has iso's in it, says so on the can- today I put them out for the garbage

    we aren't being fully informed about the dangers of these catalyzed paints, they are all quite toxic, and about the most dangerous chemicals you can be exposed to as a hot rodder- my choice is, no more isos. I'd paint my next car with house latex and a roller, before I ever use iso's again

    fresh air respirator just isn't for a home hobbyist in residential areas- it doesn't control the overspray, which can go in your house and into neighbors' homes. And the cars outgas for a week curing- quite a few have been harmed just by the drying paint after spraying it.
     
  25. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA



    the problem is, the paint companies sell it to hobbyists, and deliver it right to their door

    it needs to be stopped at the source

    you can't buy cigarettes until you're 18- cigarettes have a warning label

    you can't buy alcohol until you're 21- alcohol has a warning label

    you can't buy a gun without a background check- and machine guns are illegal without a special license

    you should not be able to buy iso's without proving you have a spray booth and fresh air respirator, either

    on the matter of the job, if you really cared about your workers' health, you would not make anyone spray iso's at all. The best thing is, use another product. I'd rather be unemployed, than spray iso's in any way/shape/form. What you are paying them, is not worth the risk. Painters don't make that much money working for someone else.
     
  26. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA

    there's more to it than that- problem:

    not all the cans are labelled correctly- and this paint is being sold in consumer store outlets and mail order now, not just pro paint shop outlets. Any consumer can walk into Tractor Supply store, and buy a gallon of urethane-reinforced alkyd enamel paint, with a pint of hardener, for $50 total. It's right there in the aisle, just down from the shoes, jeans, lawn mowers, and pet food. Obviously there's a big misconception about just how dangerous this is, i.e. it's severely UNDER-RATED, due to an overly agressive marketing scheme by the paint mfrs. It's like selling firearms in the aisles to anyone with no licensing or background check, as if they are as harmless as ketchup and mustard. The can says "follow respirator manufacturers recommendation"- what good is that, when 3M says their charcoal mask is safe to use with iso's ? The label doesn't say "for professionals only". It doesn't say "use fresh air supplied respirator" It's an ISO catalyzed, alkyd/urethane hybrid paint. Your mom can go in and buy a gallon, thinking she can paint her deck or kitchen floor with it, with a brush and no mask. What if she did ?

    what if I sold your kid a gallon of urethane and can of iso catalyst, and said "go ahead, paint it, just use a 3M charcoal mask"- and he ended up in the ER of the hospital with permanent lung damage

    how'd you like that ? suffice to say, you'd be singing a different tune then...

    I'm 46 years old, and spent a good deal of time researching this- I called 3M twice, and got their recommendation. The paint can doesn't say much- 3M said charcoal mask would protect me, if I sprayed it outside and broke job into smaller tasks- well it didn't- and I ended up in the ER

    I can read better than you'll ever live to- and there's a lot more "yays" than "nays" on these urethane info threads- this thread has 5 stars for a reason- there was a lot of younger guys considering the paint, now they know the hazards

    bottom line, the paint is toxic, not worth using, in any form- anyone using it without a spray booth and fresh air respirator, is going to get hurt

    there's a quiet, subtle deception going on here with the companies making/selling it- there's a whole page of paint color chips and products on the back cover of the Eastwood catalog, all urethane like I used

    without a single warning on the entire page

    there's 16 year old kids reading that catalog, and saying "dad, I want this color on the Chevelle, it's cool"

    the can of paint arrives at your doorstep by UPS, it says "for professionals only"-well big deal, so does a bottle of ammonia or bleach from Walmart-the CAN should say "do not use with charcoal respirators" and "only use in spray booth"

    and the 3M charcoal respirators should say "not for urethane"- like all the other respirator companies are now doing

    WHERE THE F-K ARE THE WARNINGS ? On the MSDS, but you don't get the MSDS until you know there is one, and call and have it mailed/faxed.

    does a 16 year old even know what an MSDS is ?

    it should come with the paint- just like with cigarettes, alcohol, any other hazardous substance or item

    this urethane product is begging to be licensed- it's too dangerous to sell to the general public

    would you give a loaded gun to a 16 year old, and say "that's only for professional use only", then walk away feeling you did your part in regards to safety ?

    the right thing to do, is not give them the product to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  27. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA



    that's how I feel too- it's more important than how to polish your mag wheels, or tint windows, or some other lame ass thread

    what gets me is, there's lots of threads on this board to read, if these few "nays" don't like this thread, they can just go to another one- and not reply here

    it's like bitching because one cable channel has a show you don't like, when you have 60 other channels to choose from

    why don't they just change the f-ing channel, and post somewhere else then
     
  28. the SCROUNGER
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 478

    the SCROUNGER
    Member
    from USA




    zman, the real issue is, you're don't understand my posts, and everything I post flies right over your head

    you reply with posts about mothballs, and freon...:D

    obviously you've never actually sprayed any urethane, or catalyzed enamel, in your life
     
  29. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 4,981

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    I've shot just about everything. Back in the mid 80s I shot some military drab green on some development HUMMERs we were building for AM General. I remember the can saying "alphiatic isocyanate" so I suited up and all. For mid 80s thinking I was overly cautious, but whatever. The next day I had more of what I call the "urethane hangover" and my shit was DRAB GREEN! I didn't get much exposure and was as scared as I was surprised that it "colored" my internal digestive system. I refused to paint the rest of the parts. The other guy laughed at me and did em himself. Fuck him anyways, that was in 85 and I still would kick his ass if I saw him today, for way more than that (remember him safariwagon?).

    It's no kids game. I can respect someone pontificating about these things and their experiances but a litle common sense and self respect goes a long way.

    I also believe it should be left to the pros. I don't think it should be over-spoken about home painters and outlawing ones opportunities. Move the air, protect yourself, wash the area, I think most of you get the message.
     
  30. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,540

    zman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Garner, NC

    No you are the one that doesn't get it. There are lots of dangerous substances that we come in contact everyday. The same ones you are dismissing when they are mentioned. Freon as well as other refridgarents are dangerous, very dangerous. Moth balls are dangerous. Paint of all types is dangerous. Varsol, which I have in my parts cleaner is dangerous, so I don't stick my bare hands in there. You go on and on about all your years of experience with stuff yet you didn't know the dangers. I'm sorry you got sick, same way I'm sorry when Irishpol and his wife got sick from moth balls. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224241
    If you had indeed had the experience painting that you claim then you should've known better. And yeah I've painted plenty. Despite what you think. Mask, new filters, plenty of ventilation, is the least that I've ever used.

    [​IMG]

    All the threads of me painting it are here if you want to verify.

    Yeah paint is dangerous, we get it....
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2013 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.