Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

It's my understanding that carburetors are designed to "see" a certain minimum amount of air flow in order to meter efficiently at idle and during transition.

Since an internal combustion engine is nothing more than an air pump, the amount of air flow at any given rpm can be computed as a function of displacement.

If we assume (here's where it gets dicy) that the IDLE air flow in the original application is optimum for the carburetor, we have a baseline from which to compute the optimum IDLE air flow in other applications.

So, strictly for the sake of discussion, if the original application (flathead V8) "pumped" 100 cubic feet of air per minute AT IDLE with ONE carburetor, we can assume that a new application which pumps 200 cubic feet of air per minute would run equally efficiently with TWO carburetors because each carburetor "sees" the same air flow as in the original application.

If your 350 SBC meets this criteria I'd bet that THREE carbs with full metering capability will work just fine. But...I'd bet that your 350 SBC won't meet the criteria for minimum air flow at idle because it is not three times the displacement of a flathead V8.

I'm old and have led a very checkered life (I'm a child of the '60s after all) so I may be all full of porridge. Anyone who follows Chip's thread is welcome to shred my premise...if you've got a better one.

 

Ya, the same though had crossed my mind Eric. I see so many of these set up on straight linkage in the early books though, and the total CFM is so small that I really do think I will give this a shot rather than the progressive.

 

You can't hurt it by playing with it, Chip, and I'd be the last person to try to disuade you from trying something unconventional. I'll be following with rapt attention. Good luck!

 

T-bucket is nice...but what about the modified???? Looking for all the leads in that direction that I can develop!

 

There is a thread here call "For Modifieds Only" that has a couple pictures of my car in there, but it isn't the scope of this thread, so it stays in the background.... Now, (lead weight hint coning, watch toes...) I am going to be selling my modified in VERY near future... Message me if you would like to see and discuss...

 

Hmmmm.......I'm not a carb expert by any means, but I do work on a related field to this. I both agree and disagree. The ideas reasoning is right, but the basis is slightly off. It's not the airflow through carb (Well, indirectly it is, but more on that in a bit), so much as the pressure drop caused by the flow through the venturi that is the carb throat. Since the throttle opening is so small at idle and just off idle, there will be a vacuum in the intake under the carb, and at idle it's this pressure drop across the throttle blades that draws fuel through the idle circuit. (This is STILL a simplfied description, there are other variables such as manifold design, cam overlap, etc. that affect this as well by affecting idle vacuum strength). Since that throttle opening is fairly small (and can be made smaller), a mild 350 should have plenty of vacuum to maintain sufficient signal to 3 carbs. All three throttle blades will end up further closed, but this will increase the vacuum signal (to a point), allowing more than the 2 carbs in the original example. Now if you exceed that point by oh say 6x2 bbls with non progressive linkage on a stock 210 hp 327.......your gonna have some tuning issues! If ONLY I knew then what I know now.....might have gotten that thing to idle less than1200 rpm. Back to the airflow part, the airflow is caused by the pressure drop, and it's pretty low at idle. In Chips case, I think getting the idle fuel flow down enough to make the 350 happy may be more of a challenge. The mixture screws only do so much, then you have to start playing with idle bleed restrictions, etc. Hope this makes sense, I'm also a child of the sixties, and I had to keep going back to see where I was on my explanation!

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Sure, if you shut the carbs down enough with no load you can get it to idle, but what happens when the butterflies are opened and the vacuum momentarily drops to zero at the same time the engine begins to see a load? My guess is that the engine will quit running because the ability of the carburetor to transition from the idle circuits to the run circuits will have been compromised.

The only way I can think of to get this setup to work on the street is to run an abnormally high idle speed with a high stall converter...or to cultivate the habit of winging the throttle before engaging the clutch...in order to get the engine operating fully on the run circuits before it sees a load. I dunno...

 

What I know about 3x2 set ups is just what I've read or heard, BUT doesn't simple physics suggest that:

More air + more fuel = more power?

More air entering the carbs, plus additional fuel to burn, delivered to all 8 cylinders, has almost got to equal more power. Am I being too basic? This is what makes me sometimes question the progressive set up. Surely, all those hot rods from "back in the day", some with EIGHT carbs, must have been doing something right or was it just smoke and mirrors?

My logic is telling me that all 3 of those carbs should make that engine move like stink. If, when, I decide to run a similar set up, I'm tossing out the book, hooking everything up and going for a drive. If it doesn't perform as expected, you get a "mulligan".

 

I think the straight linkage is definitely worth trying.

Think of it this way - there are plenty of 239 cube flatheads running 2 x 97's with a straight linkage successfully and 3 x 97's on a 350 cube engine has virtually the same ratio of cfm to cubic inches as the flathead does.

 

Well you guys can do all your calculations and speculations but I agree with Fred Just put it together and try it.

I've got four old home rebuilt chrome 97s with questionable shafts on an open plentom Horne on a 331 Cad. engine and it idles at about seven hundred RPM and when I let out the clutch and punch it off the line it has no flat spot and smoothly travels to five thousand + RPM. That with old coil and point ignition.

 

You are absolutely right, SR, maybe I AM over-thinking it. Wouldn't be the first time...

 

And I can happily attest to that!

 

X2! Only one way to find out!

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Sorry guys I don't want to stop any discussion. I just want to keep it in perspective. Just remember what we are talking about. "Getting the ugly out of a T bucket". That means putting the beauty into it and their isn't much in hot rod parts better looking than those 97 tops. These things will make that engine, even if it means the loss of something and I'm not even conceding that. It will mean the difference between people just walking past Chip's T at a show and them stoping and saying WOE look at that. And yes guys that is what we all want, even if you don't admit it.

 

The only "something" that is in danger of being lost is an old Edelbrock and a half-inch of throttle linkage movement, SR. We are all in favor of Chip's switch to 3x2's, we're just discussing whether or not they can successfully be hooked up to act "as one" or whether they will need to be set up progressively to be driveable in his application.

You are absolutely right that multiple carbs - the wilder the better - are attention-getters on any hot rod. Chip's 'bucket is already different than most in a kinda' Gray Baskervilleian way and SP-topped 97s will make it even more so - especially if he can sort 'em out to run with a straight linkage.

 

Hey Chip, guru of all things bucket-like, Ive finally changed out my back tyres, whats your thoughts, do they bring a more ballanced look.

P7210086 by k1w1rodder posted Jul 21, 2014 at 11:21 AM

 

Those look like my rear tires, so it looks great to me. Nice color, too. Oh, hell. Mine is white too.

 

Hey Kiwi! They look just right man! That's exactly what it needed.

Oh, and by far I'm not a guru... Just a dork that loves buckets!

 

Another thumbs up from another bucket dork.

 

Just watched a Laurel and Hardy short on TCM (Two Tars). They start out driving a rented then 2 year old shiny black '25 roadster... Then all hell breaks loose and much '20s sheet metal carnage follows. It's good to remember how damned pretty these cars were in their stock form.

That reminds me, I have all the stuff to put together a full fendered '24 in the back yard...

 

It was a BAD week for T-Buckets on Kurt-land this week! First, the hot oil pressure started going south. It has always ran 70 psi cold, 40 psi hot, but all of a sudden that 40 psi became 30 psi after extended highway time (20 plus miles). Not exactly a disaster (still have slightly more than 10psi per 1000 rpm.....but not much. Cruise rpm is usually 2700-2800 rpm. No reason to panic yet, it's time for an oil change anyway, it's not making any bad noises, and it's got a Fram HP-1 oil filter on it (I'm NOT a fan of Fram oil filters!). So I change the oil, fill it with Castrol 20w50, and install a WIX filter on it. Fire it up, co ok d press. is still 70psi, drive it around the block to warm it up, warm pressure is 40psi, and all seems right with the world (although I now know I need to keep a closer eye on it for a while. Drive it to a little local show on Wed. night, and everythings still fine. Drive it to work Friday morning (30 miles, all freeway) and everythings still fine. Drive it up to Crusin Grand in Escondido Friday evening and everythings fine going up, slow trip, lots of stop
and go on the way. On the way home (on the freeway), it drops to 30psi warm, then down to 20 psi at speed warm! Not good, now we don't have 10 psi per 1000 rpm. Get off the freeway and it comes back up to 30 psi. Pull over, check the oil to make sure I didn't under fill it, Levels fine. Drive the rest of the way home (very carefully) on surface roads. Still no bad noises. Starting to think the electric oil preesure gage is a POS/ going out (VDO), so I stop off at the shop and screw a direct reading mechanical gauge in it, no oil pressure at idle hot, 20-30 psi at cruise. Damn it! Time to pull the pan, check the bearings, oil pump and pick up, and relief / bypass valve under the main cap if it hasn't been replaced yet. It "SHOULD" have the little anodized full flow adapter installed instead of the 57
year old check ball, but onlt one way to find out! This is where things start to go really wrong, mu clubs car show is the next morning, the club newsletter editor wants to shoot the car for the newsletter after the show, and he thinks the guy from Street Legal Magazine might also want to shoot it. Personally, I'm not a big trophy or my cars in a magazine type of guy, but I've already had to cancel on the club editor twice, so I decide to trailer the car. This is where it all starts to go horribly wrong. I've never actually had the T on my trailer, but it was custom built for a tubbed '64 Savoy, so I was pretty sure it would fit. My darling wife volunteered to help me load it, bless her heart, because it was already 10:30, and she knew I had to be up at 5. The cars too loud to start that late (pretty sure some of the neighbors already hate me, trying hard not to make it unanimous!), so I hooked the winch cable around the axle, and took a loop of cable around the hook so it wouldn't slip. I winched the front of the car up onto the trailer with Robin steering. Just as the rear tires started up the ramps, the damn hook spun and came loose. Normally when I do this by myself, I keep a block behind the car and move it foward every couple of feet, for just this emergency, but Friday night I forgot. Robin tried to stop it (Well, actually she did) and it pushed her down and ran right up her leg. Fortunately, those big tires are kinda soft with only 15 psi in them, it doesn't seem to have broken anything, and she walked into the house, but she's pretty sore! So now this things run over both of us because I was trying to cut the neighbors a break. I think I'm gonna name it Christine, and F the neighbors from now on! She's taking it pretty well, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna cost me a Jeep Wrangler or a horse before it's all over....she's been wanting both
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WoW! Glad your better half is okay. Why do you run 20w50? Seems kinda heavy.

 

When I got it it had always been run on straight 50w. Since I already had a oil pressure issue, didn't make any sense to go to a lighter weight for the test. Plus, even though Alpine is only 30 miles from the ocean, it's the edge of the high desert climate here, it's pretty darn hot! Not quite Phoenix, but only about 10 degrees behind sometimes!

 

What engine?

 

6-71 blown 392 Hemi.

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Damn Blownfuel, You sure we aren't related? Sounds like a typical weekend around here! Glad to hear your wife is going to be okay, but ya, that one IS going to cost you.

Just for the record, for summer time weight I run either straight 50 or 20W 50 in everything. I just don't the point of chancing it with lighter oils in the heat.

 

Diggin' your new quote line, Tfever!

 

Well, I got kicked out of the hamb trying to attach a photo, something to do with the evaporating support for android systems I bet, because neither my LG phone or my Kindle Fire will post right now. Fred, thanks for the concern for Robin, I really tried to get her to go to the hospital when it happened, but she refuses! Have you ever noticed people who work (or worked) in a hospital, won't go to a hospital unless it's life or death! Makes you wonder if they know something we don't, doesn't it?

 

Chip, brothers from another mother? It does kinda seem like it sometimes, doesn't it.....parallel universes or something! I actually plan on getting her both, but I'm trying to hold her off on the horse till we move back to Texas one day. My family has the facilities there, where as we would have to board one here. I told her I bought her a whole herd when I bought the T, but she didn't buy it! I actually already gave her a horse (it's in Texas), but I think she thinks I was joking. It's gotta be 5 or 6 years old now, and never been broken. There may be a time when she thinks getting run over by a T was just a minor inconvenience, cause I sure as heck wouldn't get on that SOB. But enough talk about 1 hp modes of transportation, this is a car forum!

 

Are you running oil with Zddp in it???