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Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by need louvers ?, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    Your probably right Kiwi. And the first to get it started was our own T bucket father Norm when he changed his roadster from the black version to the metallic blue and flame version. But what we are talking about here is after all the excesses of the '70s and '80s is good judgement. It's not the chrome and color days that were the problem it's the gold and krazy paint days. My point is that it's possible to over correct from those days and come up with a car with no personality. But that's just my opinion and everybody has one along with another body part. :D:D:D Hey I just learned how to post smiley faces.:):):) Let it go Gary


     
  2. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Ya know, Blownfuel, This might sound like an isult, but it's really not meant to be. I don't think that I would change too much on that car... It's almost perfectly of it's era, that late seventies early eighties era, where the few of these cars still being built were WAY over the top. I think that if you tried too hard to "backdate it", it would look kinda fish out of water. I do like the idea of a nice set of Halibrand big windows though, and maybe a bit narrower rear tires. It does look like a very nice build though.
     
  3. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member


    Absolutely Tunbender, It's all gonna be kinda mundane and simple, but I will shoot what I can so you guys can see.
     
  4. Daddio211, that's EXACTLY what I've said since I bought it. It a really well built car with an identity crisis. It's tryoing to be too many things at this point. Gary, Chip, my thoughts exactly. I may have overstated how much I want to change. The Car has a long history in my club, and I think changing too much would really upset some people. My major planned changes are the wheels and tires (you and I are in exact agreement there, Chip!), and painting the red frame, engine, and radiator black. the rear tires are a "little" large ;-), and quite honestly, as soon as you jump on it they expand to the point where the contact patch is down to 12" or so. I'm only running 15psi in them, kinda afraid to go any lower on the street without putting screws the beads, and I don't want to do that. The only other thing that kinda bugs me about the car is the previous owner was a machinist and whittled a BEAUTIFUL billet luggage rack for the car (which is also REALLY useful), but it just doesn't quite fit the style of the rest of the car. I don't want to take it off, so I guess it's just gonna have to be my one "goofy" add on part. Other than that, wiring (it's so bad the car came with a replacement wiring harness in a box) and chrome refreshing are all I have planned for it. I don't want too take this car too far back, that's what I have the other two for (damn things seem to be multiplying!).

    T bucket Luggage rack.jpg
     
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  5. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    So, how about taking that luggage rack, flipping it over, rounding the edges and polishing the new "top" and reusing it? I very much agree that someone spent some serious time on it, but the emblem and the square edges are what kinda places it as a period piece. Some times the difference between "billet" and just aluminum in round edges and a polish...
     
  6. That's a posibilty, Chip. I like the emblem, but the black anodizing is starting to get a whitish discoloration to it. could just roulnd the edges and polish this side too.
     
  7. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    Or you could just take it off and fill the holes with polished S.S. round head carriage bolts.
    At first I thought the top was too much red.. Then I looked again and saw that it was dark red and looked pretty good.
    Another thing to think about is those tall stacks. I think a nice lower aluminum scoop would tone the engine down a little. More bigger isn't always good.
    A few little things and that will be a pretty kool T.

     
  8. BF, that's gotta be a handful! Definitely awesome. It's of-the-style of Sunkist and Moonkist, but they always scared me because they had no front brakes at all! Not to take this too far afield and OT, but, spokes and wires:
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Gary, their just keeping the dirt out! I'm going to Texas for Christmas and I've got 2 or 3 of these on a shelf in the garage there. They definitely have that 70's vibe going on! Nitrobrother, a friend of mine has an original book of Disneyland E tickets. I keep trying to talk him out of one so I can laminate it into the dash!
     

    Attached Files:

  10. I asked Chip about this once before, this was a Arizona car ( not sure what part) before it came out here. It has Jalopy Street Rod Club etched in the drivers wind wing. Haven't been able to find anything about this club though.
     
  11. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    There is a guy on the HAMB building a bucket. Threat name: ok; oppinions please.

    He us trying to build a nice little car, and is doing a fine job, but not perfect, but getting there!

    But then some guy jumps him, about running tube axle with hairpins. Because that are unsafe together with and will brake. But chip runs the same set up.

    And in my book chip and his buddy el polaco is masters of safe and sound hot rods builds, and would never run a unsafe rod on there own turf.

    What am I missing not seeing?

    I really likes the look of a suiside mounted tube axle.
     
  12. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    Perfect. We're thinking along the same lines.

    Most people don't know where the expression comes from "E ticket ride" Wish I had saved some but I used them all up. Bet that thing is one through.

     
  13. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    I saw that Volvo, and I resisted jumping in and doing some talking. See, on one level, the ranter in that case is correct.

    An I beam axle will twist a surprising amount as it moves through it's suspension rise and fall. The split wishbones or hairpins that are out to the frame rails will use that flex as one side or the other rises, and all is well.

    A tube axle though, doesn't twist. It remains stiff, so technically it is supposed to rip the attachment points for split wish bones or hair pins right out of the frame and kill everybody on board. The RIGHT way to actually run a tube axle is to run a four bar system, (or unsplit wishbone) so that that axle remains in roughly the same plain through both side of it's rise and fall, and any twist with either side rising is taken up by the four bars themselves. It really is a much more supple suspension system.

    But, with hairpins or split wishbone and a tube axle, people really don't die, and they really don't yank the attachment points out of the frame and kill EVERYBODY on board. See, the thing is that all of this stuff moves over such a small radius, that it never really sees a point where a tube axle is forced to flex. Tube axles set up that way were the staple at Indy for about 40 years without incident, and on sprint cars and midgets too. Having spent some time in the latter, I can tell you if stuff is going to show it's weak spots, it'll be in those cars on dirt, 'cause they are brutal. On a light car like a 'Bucket, or an early thirties roadster you are just never going to see enough movement to create a problem.

    Where his rant comes from, is a company called Pete and Jakes that formed in the early seventies. You'd recognize one of the names of these guys, Pete Chapouris, who is the guy behind So-Cal these days. See, Pete and his partner Jim Jacobs were about to set the hot rod world on it's ear in about '74, by offering the first, high quality four bar kits that could be mail ordered to your garage no matter where you were. One of the things they used to gain that position was a clever set of drawings in a pamphlet that they sent out to those considering buying their four bars. It depicted the forces involved in the different types of front suspension set ups as they went though their movements. The result? It worked like a charm! Pure marketing genius! Through out the seventies, your car was not even close to complete unless it had a genuine Pete and Jakes four bar! And, all of the drawings were completely true! the only "grey area" was the fact that the suspension systems under our cars never moved enough to truly NEED the superior control of the four bar system, and not really enough to destroy the tube axle/hairpin combo.

    So, what we see today is guys that still quote those pamphlets page and verse as gospel, that maybe never really understood the forces involved, or never quite caught the fact that Pete and Jakes was using that pamphlet to SELL them on their four bar set ups! Or, in a worst case, never went beyond reading the pamphlets to find out that, well, even though it's technically wrong, it still works very well the other way, too. Just MY opinions....

    Oh, and I'll try to dig up and post my copies of the papers. I might have a copy on the 'puter that I grabbed around here.
     
  14. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    I never saw it explained better Chip. My thoughts exactly except I couldn't have put it that well. You go to the Indy museum and you will see cars with the exact same front suspension as my roadster that ran 500 miles on the bricks with no trouble. I mean exactly V8 60 axles '40 Ford brakes and hairpins. And that race wasn't the toughest track. Those old rutted dirt tracks were killers on suspension and I don't remember seeing any broken unless they crashed.
     
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  15. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,305

    missysdad1
    Member

    The original P&J information on this subject can still be found on their website. As Chip points out the suspension movement shown in the illustrations is more akin to a rock crawler than a street driven hot rod.

    One of the issues that is not addressed in the P&J material is the loss of the anti-sway control that split 'bones provides when one uses a 4-bar system instead. Those old roadster racers knew a thing or two about making old Fords corner well without adding any extra weight or expense.
     
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  16. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Thats great chip. I knew that this was my first stop for a "please school me, and no rant" question!

    You guys are the Best!

    So the tube is truely traditional Pre-P&J set up, and the whole TIG-welder-generation would'nt run it. LOL
     
  17. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 3,710

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    Absolutely this is why I say this is my favorite thread on the HAMB ;):)
     
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  18. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    There are lots of things that the old hot rodders did on their cars, things that worked forever when the "experts" said they were wrong.
    Things like wishbones or hairpins on rear suspensions mounted to the outboard sides of the frame rails.
    Lots of other examples too.
    I'm reminded of a saying.
    "Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it" :D

    By the way, today is Winters quick change delivery day :cool: :)
     
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  19. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Lets say, more like the "TIG welder generation schooled by the Pete and Jakes generation...".

    I AM the Pete and Jakes generation, taught be the "we have this, and there is no mail order stuff, so we will make it work, but dammit we know it's good!" generation. My good buddy Don Marks, (who is a walking, breathing, living legend that you have never heard of!) Gave me my first job in this stuff in '82 at his shop Marfab, (Those around since then just had a glimmer of recognition!) and I was a young, very green hot rod guy who had read everything and of course, being a teen, knew it all, and was eager to prove I knew it all. A customer's "A" came in with a tube axle and split wish bones came in, and I promptly flipped out, and quoted the Pete and Jakes pages. Don stared at me blankly, and after my five minute rant, said "You do realize they are trying to sell four bar kits; right?".

    As a wave of recognition and slightly diminished hero worship came over me, Don set about showing me examples of hair pin/tube axle cars that have been highly successful in racing situations, and a couple that were local street cars that had been together for about 40 years at that point. He then walked us over to a recently finished T-Bucket chassis, unbolted the front spring, and let me run the tube axle through it's movements. As I moved the axle far enough askew to start to feel a slight resistance to it's movement, Don would say "stop!". Thinking I did something wrong, I set it all down and stepped back. Don walked over, lifted it to the exact same position, and said "If you are at this point in the suspension's movement in a T-Bucket, you have lot's bigger problems than whether the axle is gonna break stuff.... Like where the hell are you going to land after the accident!". Lesson learned, sir.... And thank you!

    That is my first recollection of learning the practical side of automotive engineering outside the covers of a book or magazine.

    Volvo, thank you for the compliment earlier too about setting up stuff correctly. The one thing I can say for both ElPolacko and myself, is that we have never been shy about driving what either of build. Sometimes, quite honestly, that's the very best way to learn what works well and what doesn't.
     
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  20. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    I tell you what Blue One, One place where you will always get a rise out of me IS with a rear end mounted with split bones or a set of hair pins split to the frame. Ya, it will work on a light car with minimal suspension movement, and yes, sometime it is really the only choice as far as chassis packaging goes, but quite honestly, it is usually my last choice for rear end control. I say this even though my personal car is set up this way. The forces involved in the greater diameter of the rear axle tube, plus the forces involved in putting down torque and making traction, places forces many times heavier on a pair of rear hair pins split to the frame rails than it does at the front end. you better believe that I check the rear hairpins, Heims, and mounting brackets on my car weekly with as much driving as I do.

    A much better mounting scheme is turning the hairpins into lower links hinged at both ends, then create a long torque arm centrally mounted. Or, for that matter, an unequal four link such as what you have under your car. Or, even just a pair of tube hairpins or "traction bars" with their ends mounted nearly together under the car so the pivot points mimic a triangle.

    All better solutions, but all almost impossible to set up within the small confines of a T-Bucket chassis, so it's back to split 'bones or hairpins... reality sucks sometimes.
     
  21. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    I know what you mean on the tight confines of a T chassis, it took quite a bit of head scratching to figure out the unequal length triangulated 4 link setup that I have come up with. :confused: :)

    I have to change it up now to install the quick change however it will still be the same design, the top bars will just be shorter.
    It does work good, I'm going with coil overs in favor of a less spine jarring ride.

    My buddy with the orange 27 T that I posted pictures of earlier has plenty of miles on his car with transverse rear spring and outboard mounted hairpins.
    His car had not broken yet and it has serious power too.

    I am of the belief that with these light cars and the minimal suspension movement the hairpins are flexible enough to take some of the strain off of the mounting points.
    Possibly that is what helps them stay together. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  22. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Man, if I had time to do other wise, I would GIVE you the %&*^$# coil overs on the back of my car!!! HATE! A detailed and properly tailored cross spring rides just as well, locates the rear when set up correctly, and is SO much easier and cheaper to tune than these damned things will EVER be! On top of all that, I find the coil overs ugly as hell. They are the only regret I have on this car.
     
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  23. Soooooooooooooooo change them!!!
     
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  24. How about NOS 15x14 aluminum Halibrand Sprints?
     
  25. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Need louvers?, I got bacwards in to Model T rods, i've looked at them for a long time, and espacialy T-bucket, with the set of glasses, that tells me they were ugly all together!

    But for the longest time I only saw fad T, and dident know that was the biggest reason that I dident like buckets.
    I just dont like fad Ts. :eek:
    Because this is more my thing, espacialy yours, and the track T are even better, but bobtailed T is less my thing thing then buckets. And the fad T is so bad I really dislikes them. And they give a good T a bad name.

    All this is clear as mutt, and I learned more here on this threat then the rest of the www, except for the Hamb in general, that tought me a lot of different/good things.

    I dont mind coilovers and S-dime rear ends in rods, but I dislike when people pass them of as traditional; because oldtimers would have used them If they had them in 1958, even its from a 1985 POS.
    But of you have to pull a blakie, and put the car over on its side to see what rear, I dont care what it is.
    But a bobtailed T with a 8.8 rear in plane side will never rock my boat. It just dosent look the part.

    But you been my teacher thrue this, and I appriciate the leasson, when it comes from someone I respect.
     
  26. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Trust me, if time away from working would allow me to I would. Gotta keep this running so I'm mobile, though. I do sound kinda whiny on that subject though.
     
  27. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    So... lets just say that a reversed eye transverse rear spring was 38" wide eye to eye, how wide would the mounts on the rear end need to be to properly mount said rear end with the appropriate 2" wide standard shackles ?
    I've always wondered that :D
     
  28. Tim_with_a_T
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,357

    Tim_with_a_T
    Member

    Blue One,
    Check out Speedway's site for instructions on transverse spring mounting. I will try to find the link after work. I realize what I just told you is incredibly vague, but I do know that's where I got my info from when I set mine up. :)

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  29. Tim_with_a_T
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,357

    Tim_with_a_T
    Member

  30. Tim_with_a_T
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,357

    Tim_with_a_T
    Member

    Forgot to mention, but follow the link, then download the .pdf attachment. :)

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     

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