Hot Rods The 56 buick wagon wont start again?

Bruce, Are you learning anything thru this? Or are you just trying to follow everybody's instructions?

You mentioned trying to find voltage "somewhere" in a wire. It doesn't work that way. Unless a wire is broken, voltage flows thru a wire. If it is hot on one end, it should be hot on the other end. Voltage stops flowing at a switch, then flows thru another wire when the switch is flipped. Think of voltage as water flowing thru wires then back to the battery thru grounds.

 

Rfraze, I am learning a lot just trying to let everything sink in what everyone has told me.I am thinking there is a bad spot in the wire either coming from the starter solenoid to the coil or coming out of the starter switch so I really think I am narrowing it down with your help.ThanksBruce.

 

Well as was posted on here I checked for the 2 smaller wires on the starter solenoid{and was told one wouldn't have power} but the little yellow one and the purple HAD power.Looks like they run up to some sort of relay?Bruce.

 

The purple one runs up to the relay, the yellow one runs next to the + battery post.

 

Bruce, it looks like you only have one large conection and one small one. Are you sure that is the starter solenoid? Can you take a picture of the starter, does it have anything mounted to it? Gary

 

Do you have a schematic for the car? That's what I would be using to see what wire goes where. Most of them have at least the wire colors and possibly the gauge of them too.

 

27 That would be helpful. I remember a pic of starter from a previous thread on this car, so maybe Bruce still has it or can post another. I believe he is showing us pics of where the wires from starter go up fenderwell and connect to whatever.
56 Buick guys - Jump in here with descriptions of what these devices are if you will.
Bruce - It's past time that you got a repair manual for this car, if for nothing more than knowing what this relay and battery gizmo are supposed to do. (Saves you time) Plus a wiring diagram.
I suggest that you begin making diagrams of where wires (and color) go and what they connect to as you work your way thru this circuit. Draw the relay, connections, wire color at each connection, and where they go, as you figure it out by following wires.
31 - Think you are right about junction block. I was hoping the yellow wire was bypass wire, but Bruce says it's hot. Either it is getting power by being connected to wrong pole on starter or is getting power at junction block.

I would have guessed the relay to be a starter trigger relay, but, I think, Bruce said the wire (purple?) is hot. WTF? I think the starter works and we were only looking for the bypass wire.

 

Based on the chart ,,,
Looks like from the ignition switch the pink wire is connected to resistor.
Yellow wire from starter connected to junction block then to the coil
the starter relay is fed from the NSS,

 

Bruce, 31Vicky just gave you (us all) a gift! Take this diagram somewhere and have it enlarged!!!!! Thanks!!

 

If you turn the key on, the yellow wire will be hot, but with voltage thru the resistor. If the yellow wire is removed from the starter post, the post will not be hot but the wire will be. When the starter is engaged, the post on the starter will become hot with full battery voltage.

 

Thanks guys, I have a manual but it doesn't show the wiring so , I am just going to start from scratch again. I just pulled everything apart and will have to find out where the 2 yellow wires and the 2 pink wires go coming out of the fire wall unstead of guessing.I finally had to walk away from it today. I also replaced the starter button wires with a heavier gadge wire but haven't hooked them up to anything yet.Bruce.

 

Bruce, Take a look at the diagram above and check to see that the wiring to starter solenoid is like the drawing. Roadster27 asked for a pic of starter and I believe you had one at one time.

 

Take the two yellow wires off the stud (that says junction block on diagram)and test for voltage with the key ON:
1. the bare stud
2. the one under the yellow from starter (I think this is ballast bypass wire) Where does it go?
3. the yellow wire up from starter, then test same wire however you make it START. You should get near battery voltage here when you engage starter.

 

This all seems right, but the test Bruce did showed no increase in voltage at coil+ during cranking. I'm still working on finding the wire from solenoid that shows battery voltage when starter engages. I'm hoping it is the yellow one on top at the junction block. Then we can trace the other wire that attaches there OR Bruce can just run a new wire from junction block to coil+ and test again. Thanks again for the diagram.

 

Between Bruce's tests and old buzzards remarks there is much more than a lot of confusion.
Notice it's the post at the starter that needs to show full battery voltage. A wire attached to that post should also show full battery voltage. If both ends are connected, 1 at starter and the other at the coil WITH the resistor connected that wire will show some voltage with the key on. In the on position the voltage coming thru the resistor just ends at the starter post. Once the contacts in the starter close the wire will show full battery voltage and thus send it back to the coil.

I'm sure that's very confusing to anyone who's not familiar with this stuff.

Now add in old buzzards comments and anyone reading this thread will be left with a headache.

I'd say disconnect both (or any and all) wires at the coil, pink and yellow.
With key in on position pink wire on top of resistor should show full battery voltage.
The yellow wire should show nothing.
With the key in start position the yellow wire from starter should hot up.

Now if the battery is at all in a questionable condition, the cranking voltages delivered may be low.

 

I agree with you again Vick, except that I don't think that yellow wire connects to the one from the solenoid, or the one from the solenoid is not connected as indicated in diagram. Reason, as stated, is that other wire connected to coil+ did not increase voltage when starter was engaged in previous test.
Hopefully Bruce will test loose wires at junction block and find bypass wire from starter, which will "hot up" in START position and we can move on from there.
After all this, we still do not know battery voltage. At one time, I saw a reading of 11.95 and believe that indicates a battery in need of a charge. The 13+ readings must have been while running.

The bad news is that Bruce has ripped everything out and starting over. Does it go back together like diagram or in some other manner. I guess it depends on how soon he wants to drive it.

 

Post 165
31Vicky with a hemi

Now add in old buzzards comments and anyone reading this thread will be left with a headache.
******************
I fail to see why saying that battery voltage drops under load causes hedaches. It is an electrical fact & easily provable

Now if the battery is at all in a questionable condition, the cranking voltages delivered may be low.

A brand new, fully charged battery will drop voltage under heavy load.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/repair-questions/4221215

You can test for proper cranking voltage with a voltmeter while—you guessed it—cranking the engine. The several hundred amperes of current the starter motor draws should pull the battery voltage down to a normal 9 to 10 volts. Do this test: Disable the ignition or injection to prevent the engine from starting. Then put a voltmeter across the battery posts while cranking it with the key or an external remote starter button. Crank for 15 seconds (no longer); the battery voltage should remain 9.6 volts or above. (These are GM specs for a battery at 70 F; your mileage may vary.)

And............this is the highest voltage you will find anywhere in the vehicle while cranking is going on.

It is not complicated.

 

buzzard - The point is: That lower "available voltage" during cranking runs thru the ballast resistor and drops too low to fire the engine efficiently. Manufacturers designed a ballast bypass wire to supply all "available voltage" to the coil ONLY while solenoid is engaged (as evidenced by the diagram).

A starter that needs repair will draw more amps than a good one.

 

The wire that "hots up" (does not go thru the resistor) the voltage to the coil is a 16 ga yellow wire running from the solenoid to a junction block and on up to the coil.

There is a 14 ga pink wire, that puts the resistor in the circuit, going to the ignition switch to provide the running (reduced) voltage for the coil. It appears to be spliced into a larger (10 ga) Pink wire.

Yes!!?

POST#166

This is the statement I found strange. The only place in the whole vehicle that will have a voltage lower than the cranking voltage will be the wire between the resistor & the coil. When cranking, the yellow wire from the solenoid will have the same voltage as the pink one from the ign switch to the resistor.

 

Looking at the wiring diagram, I think I know what is going on.
On the wiring diagram there are two 18 gauge wires (one pink, one yellow) and two 14 gauge wires (one pink, one yellow). The two large wires (14 gauge yellow and pink) will hook up to ballast resistor, pink to one terminal, yellow to other. Then here comes the most important. On the ballast resistor terminal with the large yellow wire, a wire that will go from this terminal will then go to the + side of the ignition coil. (A lot of times there will also be a lead from a condenser that is mounted to the near the coil. Sometimes this condenser will go bad and this might also contribute to your problems. It is simply put there for radio noise supression.)

Meanwhile I have no idea on how you hooked up the starter button, but the smaller pink and yellow are for the old accelerator start switch. This is where I would hook the starter pushbutton switch. One wire per terminal, two terminal switch. This will allow you to start the car with ignition on and in park or neutral. An easy way of finding out what pink wire is for the starter relay is to take the smaller pink and touch the larger pink. If ignition is on and trans is in park or neutral, the engine should crank. If good then try touching the small pink to the small yellow (with ignition on and trans in park or neutral). Again it should crank. Next if it did crank, try taking small pink and touch to big yellow. It should NOT crank..

Also note, that the big yellow wire that was hanging under the generator is the generator grounding wire and DOES need to be connected to the generator case. If you don't have a good ground, then the starter relay will not work and obviously no cranking of engine.

Well I hope this helps you out.
Good luck

 

No this is a starter relay that works with the accelerator start feature. The typical GM starter solenoid is still on top of starter.

 

buzzard - Let's just test the yellow wire at the junction block (not running) during cranking and see what the voltage is. We bet that the number is higher than the voltage at coil+ (key on, not running). Do you agree with that so far???

It would be nice to have a battery voltage reading (not running, key off) to compare everything to, but I can't seem to get one (unless the previous 13.13 reading was not running, which seems unlikely).

 

I found these here from 2012 question from Bruce
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1956-buick-wagon-starter-problems-still.755481/

Is this your starter button now?


Stock -

 

Bruce, D2 answered your question about this wire. Check to see if it is the same wire that attaches to side of voltage regulator (extra ground). It looks like there is a tapped hole in generator case (by screw for condenser) where it should attach (which might help keep those wires out of generator fan).

 

According to the diagram there is nothing to agree or disagree with. The wire goes from the solenoid thru/onto a junction block and ends up on the coil. It is effectively one wire. Everything I ever learned says that a wire will be doing the same thing at both ends at the same time. It gets power from the solenoid and sends it to the coil.

Have you ever had the cap off one of these solenoids so that you know how it works inside??

 

From what I can tell this has been a forever problem with No starts based off of Bruce's post history.

Trouble shooting 101 says the various systems are designed to function or output with the predetermined input. If the input is off so will be the output. So There needs to be several tests done here and each test needs to pass before bothering with the next.

1st is a baseline battery voltage and load test. , 12.6 if full charged and considered good.
If it won't pass this test don't even bother doing anything else.

2 A cranking voltage at battery- establish a base line for that. 9.6 minimum.

3 cranking voltage at (disconnected) wire from starter to coil measured at coil. Needs to match baseline cranking voltage.


Test 1 will ensure that the systems have the necessary voltage to overcome the voltage drop due to cranking.

Test 2 will ensure that the absolute minimum voltage is "available" to fire the coil.
(However the rest of the ignition will need to be perfect)
It also gives insight to any possible cable and starter problems that increase the amperage needed thus lowering the voltage beyond that needed to fire the coil.

Test 3 will ensure that the available voltage is actually being delivered to the coil without any "voltage drop".


Without that info and without being Certain the tests are performed correctly and the results are accurate there's no amount of internet banter that can help.

These tests are very very very easy to do and all 3 should/could be done in less time than it took to type or read this post twice.

 

Are you trying to make this more difficult than it already is? All I'm trying to do is make sure the ballast bypass wire is working AND connected. The tests so far indicate, to me, that it IS NOT. If you know some other way to get this 15 minute/2 month circuit test completed, share your knowledge.

 

If you know some other way to get this 15 minute/2 month circuit test completed, share your knowledge.

Engage the solenoid/starter, measure voltage at the coil end of wire.

Since that wire gets its voltage from inside the cap, it has to make good contact. Inside the cap is a large copper washer that gets hammered up against 4 contacts. Over time that washer gets burned & crusty from the arcing & sparking. If I was going to check voltages on that wire I would want to make sure the contacts were clean and not providing a poor connection.

The solenoid is probably old, I have seen them well fried to the point of not working any more.

 

We DID that test some time ago (no increase in voltage). See post 112 and 119 page 4.
What we do not know is, if the wire to the coil attaches to junction block. We also do not know, yet, if the yellow wire from starter to junction block gets all "available voltage" from solenoid during cranking, which it seems you would want to know BEFORE taking apart the starter.
Now, if we have your approval, and you don't just want to keep arguing, may we test the yellow wire from starter during cranking?

 

d2 Willys you have just answered the question I have been looking for with the wires.This afternoon i pulled all the old wires that were bad thur the firewall and replaced them .Tomorrow I will feed them back thru the fire wall again and hook them up.I will let you know how it works out.Bruce.