I assume someone else picked up on this but... The only typo(?) I picked up was about the OHV L4. It was used in '62-'63 not '64.
Thread revival. My head hurts from all the info. Thanks to all that have posted. I'm working on a '62 code 38P 389. The timing cover is trashed. Which covers will interchange? Any suggestions on replacing the Jetaway with a more readily available/serviceable auto other than using the Wilcap adapter? This one has bright red fluid, but has been sitting for 30 years, so I don't expect it to work. My local trans man said he quit working on the Jetaways years ago and isn't looking to start again. Thanks.
Zab, Butler performance sells a midplate that the starter bolts to for use with a th350/400 trans. I think it's alot cheaper than the wilcap adapter. Trans bolt pattern is the same for 61 and up.
Thanks so much for the tip. I do have a TH400 out of a 'Vette in the shop that I'd like to use that may perform better than the Jetaway.
Mistake(s) '65 and '66 had 3 of the larger carbs-- not just '66. The '65 and '66 intakes were a slight high rise design as compared to the '64 and earlier ones. The '64 models used a MEDIUM sized 2GC in the middle and a large sized 2GC on each end. Small 2 GCs were used on some aftermarket intakes for Chevys and maybe some other GM engines. The '64 389s with the tri-power setup had 348 H.P. The '65 and '66 389s with the tri-power had the bigger center carb and also heads with larger valves; the different heads were referred to as the 421 heads. These engines had 360 H.P. The '65 and '66 tri-power heads could be installed on the '64 389 engines IF you "eyebrowed" the block at the edge of the cylinder walls so that the larger valves didn't hit the top of the blocks.
A few notes and corrections after 46 years of screwing around with these motors, with a little help from the various factory manuals and other sources laying on my bookshelf: The '58 370 and '59 to '66 389 all share the same bore of 4 1/16" (4.06) with the 389 increasing the stroke from the 3 9/16" (3.5625) of the 370 to 3 3/4" (3.75). Main bearing diameter was increased to 3" at that time (3 1/4" for the 421 when it was released in late 1961). Block deck height and crankshaft/camshaft and bore centerlines remained the same throughout production from 1955 to the end in 1978 (stockpiled for some 1979 Firebird models). For comparison the 421 used a 4 3/32" (4.09) bore and a 4" stroke. Block to bellhousing pattern was changed in 1961 with provision for a block mounted starter added to some but not all in '64, and made across the board in 1965. The '67 and later engines were simply a recast of the 389 or 421 blocks to accommodate the overbore (to 4.12) to increase the displacements to 400 and 428 with core plug (motor mount variations on '70 and later) variations. Relieving the tops of the cylinder bores was not needed for valve clearance and not done, even to accommodate the 1.92 intake valves of the H.O. head used on GTO and 421 engines through 1966. Valve inclination angle was not changed until the 1967 model year and this means that piston eyebrows (valve reliefs) used for piston to valve clearance through 1966 would all be cut at the same angle. Pistons used with 1967 and later heads would need the pistons fly cut for the angle of those later heads, and of course, dished pistons would need only to be checked for adequate piston/valve clearance. '57-'58 TriPowers all used the small base 2G carburetors at all three positions with the primary (center) carburetor a 2GC (choke mounted on the carburetor and supplied with heated air with a tube from the crossover passage as opposed to a 2GV with the choke stove in a well in the intake manifold crossover operating the choke blade with a rod). All TriPowers in these years used vacuum operated secondaries in stock form. '59 to '65 Tripower used the large base 2Gs as secondary carburetors and a small base 2GC for the primary with vacuum actuation used for secondary operation on all cars through 1963 and all automatic cars through 1966. Manual progressive linkage was used for stick shift cars '64 through '66. The 1964 manifolds are the highest of the TriPower manifolds (or Hi Rise, if you wanted to use the contemporary Ford parlance of the time). '65-'66 intakes are a direct fit to '67 and later heads (non RA V). In 1966 a large base 2GV (see above note) was used for the center carburetor, but carried a slightly smaller venturi size than the small base carburetor used in 1965 meaning actual increase in air flow over the '65 is probably not as great as one might expect. As in '57-'58, the '66 Oldsmobile also used a three carburetor intake and probably shared carburetors with the same year Pontiac TriPower. Please forgive the redundancy if I've posted this or similar info in this thread before, but I didn't feel like reviewing the entire thread to correct inaccuracies of recent posters, and wouldn't have bothered at all if not for the technical resource nature of the thread. This post is not meant to demean anyone. It's just that the more that we keep adding to, and correcting each others information on engines not produced for over 32 years, the more useful the information becomes to us all.
If what you mean by Jetaway is the four speed Hydro and it's working well, a T400 won't do much for you. Certainly not enough to warrant the changeover cost. The three speed Roto Hydramatic is another story as they were a poor transmission even when new. Repair costs on any gunnybagged transmission of that era might justify the costs of changing to something later. Chevrolet pattern transmissions do not directly bolt on and require an adaptor. You would need to ask how much more difficult or expensive that would be than a simple plate sandwiched between the block and transmission to mount a starter to a transmission with the otherwise correct pattern. The simplest solution is to use a later block with starter provisions and directly bolt on a correct pattern T350, 400, or 200R4. If you have to adapt, you might as well upgrade to a beefed up overdrive at the same time. The obvious alternative (provided you can come up with all the bits and pieces to do it) is to find a manual transmission bell with starter mounting provisions and convert to a stick shift.
Many of you are repeating things that was written on here many pages ago and its a bit redundant . Try posting things that are based on new info. Glad to see this thread is still interesting to many of you . Thanks, Axle
1961 and 1962 used the same timing cover. Here's a Pontiac engine interchange guide: http://www.teufert.net/pontiac/inter.htm I'm running a 1964 timing cover and pump on my 1961 Bonneville. The cover bolts right on, but the problem (with this or any of the other later covers) will be getting the pulleys to line up correctly. In my case, the 1964 fan pulley didn't line up with the crank and generator pulley, and the 1961 fan wouldn't clear the 1964 water pump. What I did was file a couple notches in a couple of the reinforcement ribs on the pump, and then replace a couple of the regular bolts with button head bolts for some additional clearance, and then it all fastened together without any more problems. You should be able to use a timing cover off an even newer engine, as long as you can figure out the pulley issue. One side benefit is the 1961-1962 covers used a weird cork crankshaft seal that doesn't work that great, while the newer covers have a conventional rubber seal.
I've been messing around with a set of 1964 GTO 9770716 cylinder heads lately and thought I'd post some pics and info to help illustrate some of the basic differences between the '64 and earlier heads in comparison to the '65 and later heads. Most of us are aware that 1965 was the year that the intake manifold bolt pattern was revised for the final time on Pontiac V8s, all of the currently available new aftermarket intakes will only fit the '65 and later heads. A 1964 9770716 389 head is pictured at the top, a 1970 #13 400 head below. It's easy to see the difference between early 'L' shaped water ports and the round water ports on the late head as well as the different end bolt hole locations. The round center exhaust crossover port was last used on the 1964 heads. The 1964 12-bolt intake covers the entire intake surface of the head in order to seal up the rear water port that isn't used. The '65 and later intakes use only 10 bolts and don't cover the entire length of the intake side of the head. These later heads use a freeze plug in the rear port on the driver's side head and a special 5/8" heater hose fitting that presses into the rear port on the passenger side head. The '64 intake in this instance uses a curved 5/8" hose fitting in the front water crossover to send water to the heater core and requires using a much longer 5/8" heater hose than the later heads. 1964 intake, showing the 'L' shaped water ports and full-length 12-bolt configuation along with the heater hose fitting in the water crossover. 1966 intake, showing the round water ports and shorter 10-bolt configuration. This pic should help to illustrate the water port mismatch when trying to run a '61 -'64 intake on '65 or later heads: Taking a closer look you'll notice that the intake ports on the 1964 head are located a full .250" higher up in the head as compared to the 1970 head. Port entrance size is nearly identical between the two heads, 2.050" X 1.110" for 1964 and 2.070 X 1.100" in 1970. The '64 heads have a cleaner and more uniform rectangular shape in comparison to the '70 heads, a better (and slightly more expensive) casting technique perhaps? Some of you may have noticed this round casting protrusion in the roof of the two end intake ports on the '64 head, put there to seal off the bottom of the tapped hole for the valve cover bolts. Since the port entrances were dropped a full 1/4" on the '65 and later heads there's no need for it on the later design. Of interest on this note are the '73-'74 455 Super-Duty heads that have approximately 1/4" taller intake ports than standard heads, the valve cover bolt hole breaks into the roof of the intake port on these heads so it must be sealed up properly to prevent vacuum leaks. The picture below illustrates the visual difference between closed chamber heads (1964, top) and open chamber heads (1970, bottom). Not only are the chambers of different design, but the valve placement in relation to the center of the chamber is different and the valve angle in relation to the head deck is different as well between the early and late heads. The '64 9770716 GTO (and '63 -'64 421 HO) head has a 17 degree valve angle and uses 1.92"/1.66" valves, these were the big-valve Pontiac performance street heads of their time (standard 389 heads up through '64 used 1.88"/1.60" valves). The early offset chamber placement doesn't allow the practical use of valves any larger than the 2.02"/1.76" valve sizes used in the race-oriented '62 -'63 421 Super-Duty heads. The 1970 #13 head uses the most current open chamber design that first appeared on the '67 #061 big Pontiac heads, it also has a 14 degree valve angle. 1967 was a transition year where both open and closed chamber heads were offered, as well as both 17 and 14 degree valve angle heads. The first 2.11"/1.77" big-valve street heads were offered in '67 as well, all were 14 degree valve angle. Low-performance standard heads used 1.96"/1.66" valve sizes. The valve location changed to the center of the chamber with the introduction of the 2.11"/1.77" valves and 14-degree valve angle heads, there was now more room for bigger valve sizes with the centered placement of the valves and chamber. Not a lot of difference on the exhaust side of the head at least on the outside, the D-port configuration of the ports is very much the same on both early and late heads. The later heads do have additional accessory mounting bosses cast in to mount the A/C compressor, the '67 and earlier heads use an A/C bracket that is held down by two special longer outside end head bolts. Under the valve cover there are quite a few differences between the early and late heads. The '64 head uses pressed-in rocker studs and has no sheetmetal pushrod guideplates as the pushods are guided by machined slots in the head casting, every GTO head up through '66 was made this way. The #13 1970 head happens to be a 4-barrel performance head for that model year so it has screw-in rocker studs and guideplates (not shown here). Low-performance heads made after 1966 had guideplates but still had pressed-in studs, by 1974 all Pontiac heads used screw-in studs and guideplates. Of interest are separate rocker stud bosses and the raised center 3 headbolt bosses under the valve cover on the '64 head. The valve spring installed height was 1.53" on the 1964 heads, in 1965 it was changed to 1.58" for the standard non-Ram Air heads. No differences of any real significance on the ends of the heads. One thing I did notice was the 3-bolt pattern surrounding the freeze plug was slightly different when I went to bolt the early 9770716 head to my home-built head stand. One of the bolt holes didn't line up since I had built the two pivoting end plates of the stand using a later head as a pattern. Hopefully this information (that I hope is fairly accurate) and series of pictures will help some of the Pontiac faithful to understand some of the differences between the early and late heads.
I thought I'd post a few pictures and some info concerning the differences between the '73 -'74 455 Super-Duty, '68 Ram Air II 400, '69 -'70 Ram Air IV 400, '71 -'72 455 HO round-port heads and the more common D-port Pontiac heads for those who may be somewhat unfamiliar with them. Pictured at the top is a 1969 #722 Ram Air IV 370 HP 400 round-port head, below a 1970 #13 D-port 350 HP 400 head. The exhaust ports on the RAIV head are pretty much perfectly round so it's easy to why they're called round-ports by the Pontiac hobbyists. The two D-shaped center exhaust ports on the #13 head give them their D-port nickname, these are without a doubt the most common Pontiac heads as easily 99.999% of all Pontiac V8 cars left the factory equipped with D-ports. The round exhaust ports are much easier to make headers for, getting the bolts started and putting a wrench on them is a lot easier too. All round-port Pontiac engines were equipped with free-flowing Ram Air or HO exhaust manifolds with no exceptions. Under the valve covers there are some differences that aren't easy to notice. The '69 -'70 RAIV are the only round-port heads to come from the factory equipped with 1.65:1 ratio rockers, so in this particular instance there are larger clearance holes for the pushrods that are also located closer to the rocker stud bosses. The pushrod cups in the 1.65:1 rockers are located closer to the pivot ball than on 1.5:1 rockers. Added clearance is provided for the slightly different location of the pushrod as well as the slightly larger 11/32" diameter pushrods used by the RAIV, as compared to the 5/16" diameter standard pushrods. The tapped rocker stud bosses on the RAIV are separate, the bosses on the #13 head are paired together with enough material cast in the center area so that an additonal bolt hole can be tapped. This tapped hole would only be used on a press-in stud version of this type of D-port head casting, to fasten the pushrod guide plates. Screw-in rocker studs will retain the guideplates on the #13 head, as well as on the RAIV. Looking closely at the RAIV head you can see the center head bolt boss under the valve cover has been machined right through the date code. You can still see the casting impression of the two slotted-head screws on either side of the bolt boss used by the foundry to retain the date code tag. None of the regular production round-port heads will have a casting date code that's visible, only the service replacement heads will. Round-port heads also use longer head bolts in a few places as compared to their D-port cousins. The RAIV uses some very unique valvetrain pieces, shared only with the '68 RAII #96 round-port heads. Going from the bottom of this pic are the special 11/32" pushrod guideplates, striaght 7/16" screw-in rocker studs, long hex valve adjusting nuts, short hex locking nuts, stamped steel rocker arm oil drippers and finally stamped steel retaining nuts for the drippers. An adjustable valvetrain was used on the RAIV and RAII engines, again unique among Pontiac V8s with hydraulic lifter camshafts. The long 7/16" hex nut and the short locking nut were used to make and set the adjustment, as opposed to just torquing the standard 3/8" rocker nuts down to 20 ft. lb. onto the tapered shoulder of the standard 'bottleneck' rocker studs used on common D-port heads that used non-adjustable valvetrains. The '73 -'74 455 SD heads and the '71 -'72 455 HO heads also used 'bottleneck' studs and non-adjustable valvetrains. The only other Pontiac heads to have straight rocker studs and adjustable valvetrains were the '60 -'63 389 & 421 SD D-port heads and RAV tunnel-port heads, all of them used solid-lifter cams. The RAIV uses unique 1.65:1 stamped steel rockers for .517" lift with the factory '041' cam, the RAII uses common 1.5:1 rockers (.470" lift with the '041' cam that was first used on the RAII). On the combustion chamber side we have another big difference in design between the round-port head and the D-port. Both have 2.11"/1.77" valves and open chambers, but there is a unique 'spherized wedge' chamber design shared by all of the round port heads. The intake side is where we see a major difference in port entrance roof height. The RAIV head has a .150" taller port as compared to the #13 head. Port entrance dimensions are 2.220" x 1.110" for the RAIV and 2.070" x 1.100 for the #13 head, the port floor is at the same height in relation to the head deck for both heads. Not only is there a difference in port entrance size, the RAIV port has added volume and is shaped to flow at higher valve lifts, designed to work with the factory .517"' valve lift '041' hydraulic cam. It's easy to see why Pontiac enthusiasts covet the RAIV heads as well as any of the other round-port heads. It's true that common D-port heads can be easily worked to flow just as well as or even better than the round-port heads, but it's great to have a pair of these rare Pontiac performance heads under your hood. Hopefully this post will answer some of the questions on the minds of Pontiac hobbyists and help to better illustrate both the obvious and subtle differences between these two Pontiac V8 head designs.
The '68 -'74 round-port heads all had their own unique features, here is a breakdown of most of the main differences: 1968 Ram Air II 400 heads (casting # 96, 72cc chambers, factory rated at 10.75:1 compression) had standard-sized intake ports and used the same cast iron Q-jet intake manifold as the standard 4-barrel D-port engines that year. Rocker studs were straight 7/16", pushrods were 11/32" diameter, 1.5:1 rockers, valves were 5.20" tall tuliped and swirl-polished, springs were 1.776" installed height. First use of the 9794041 cam (.470" lift w/1.5 rockers), most commonly known as the RAIV cam even though the RAII introduced it. 1969 Ram Air IV 400 heads (casting # 722, 72cc chambers, factory rated at 10.75:1 compression) had .150" taller intake ports and used a tall-port aluminum Q-jet intake with a separate cast iron exhaust crossover. Rocker studs were straight 7/16", pushrods were 11/32" diameter, 1.65:1 rockers, valves were 5.20" tall tuliped and swirl-polished, springs were 1.812" installed height, 9794041 cam (.517" lift w/1.65 rockers). 1970 Ram Air IV 400 heads (casting # 614, 72cc chambers, factory rated at 10.75:1 compression) had the same basic features as the 1969 # 722 heads, the intake port was redesigned some for improved flow. 1971 455 HO (High Output) heads (casting # 197, 111cc chambers, factory rated at 8.4:1 compression) had the same intake basic taller port dimensions at the intake manifold as the RAIV. The deeper 111cc chamber changed the actual port shape, they work well at the lower valve lift (.407") of the 9779068 455 HO cam. Rocker studs were standard bottle-neck (3/8" top threads, 7/16" shank), pushrods were 5/16" diameter, 1.5:1 rockers, valves were 4.96" tall standard flat valves, springs were 1.590" installed height. Intake manifold was of the same design as the RAIV, sand cast instead of precision cast like the RAIV. 1972 455 HO (High Output) heads (casting # 7F6, 111cc chambers, factory rated at 8.4:1 compression) were close to the same as the 1971 # 197 heads with a couple of small differences. The exhaust ports were more restrictive and the intake ports had the divider between each pair of ports at the intake surface milled down by about 1/8". The intake manifold was now slightly more restrictive due to the raised plenum floor that made room for the now riveted-on exhaust crossover heat shield. 1973 & 1974 455 SD (Super Duty) heads (casting # 16, 111cc chambers, factory rated at 8.4:1 compression) had an even larger intake port than the RAIV heads, it was both taller (by about .040") and wider. The intake port was widened by removing material from the pushrod bulge and pressing in a thin .030" wall tube to seal off the pushrod hole. The intake valve seats were cut at 45-degrees unlike the 30-degree intake seats in the other round-port and standard heads, the exhaust valve seats are actually hardened inserts. Rocker studs were standard bottle-neck (3/8" top threads, 7/16" shank), pushrods were 5/16" diameter, 1.5:1 rockers, valves were 4.98" tall tuliped and swirl-polished, springs were 1.812" installed height. The intake manifold was a one-piece cast iron tall-port unit specific to the 455 SD and was equipped with EGR. Camshaft was the 493323 (.407" lift) which has the special small-diameter 455 SD & RAV distributor drive gear, it had the same lobe profile as the 9785744 Ram Air cam which is commonly called the RAIII cam.
I really appreciate all the info. Here's a pic of the trans. It was last rebuilt in 1985 and has sat since then. I won't know if it works until I hook it up. I'm assuming it won't... I won't go with a stick conversion. I may just have to find a book on the transmission and try to rebuild it myself.
What is this? The number on the front passenger side is 347943 with the letters YA and the heads have 46 on them. Any help would be appreciated. This is the best thread I have read in a long time.
YA applies to more than one 400 motor. A 265 HP 67 motor, and some other lower power 400's from the 70's. The head code is from 1969. Just Google Pontiac engine codes, and pontiac head codes
1965 and newer heads will work with a 1965 or 1966 tripower. The 1964 and older tripower manifolds don't match up
The 1966 Tripowers all had the same base plate size. All large bases. The 1965 has the smaller center carb/baseplate. The 1966s seem to be going for the most as they are the most desireable for the bigger cubes 400 -455s.
How about a mount question: are the engine mount buckets interchaneable from a 74 Catalina to a 78 T/A?
Cool...I was hoping i wouldn't have to find new buckets so as to bable to use the WS6 front clip on my 47 Dodge truck...
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