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Studebaker 289 speed parts?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by DocsMachine, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. DocsMachine
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 277

    DocsMachine
    Member
    from Alaska

    We're getting ready to rebuild a '63 Stude 289, and we're trying to find out what kind of speed parts are available. It'll be a street engine, not a drag racer, and we'll be running an Avanti Paxton supercharger.

    I've found quite a bit of information (here and other places) but a lot of it is old and out of date. (Lionel Stone, for example, has retired and may have even passed away.)

    Specifically, we're wondering if we can get roller rockers, or at least higher ratio rockers, to start with. One source implied that we could refit to stud-mount rockers (which, we assume, meant Chevy) but gave no details.

    Second, does anyone make a modern cam, or are we stuck with R1/R2/R3 regrinds? And along with that, can we get hydraulic lifters? Lionel had a kit- reground cam, hydraulic lifters, new pushrods- but as I said, he's apparently out of business.

    Thanks.
    Doc.
     
  2. Moneymaker
    Joined: Sep 19, 2011
    Posts: 309

    Moneymaker
    Member

    Isky has patterns for more modern grinds.

    We got one from them about 10 years ago for a customers Lark project.

    Also this website should help as well.

    http://racingstudebakers.com/


    Don't tell anyone but I am a closet Avanti fan.:eek:
     
  3. Moneymaker
    Joined: Sep 19, 2011
    Posts: 309

    Moneymaker
    Member

  4. DEEPNHOCK
    Joined: Jan 3, 2005
    Posts: 261

    DEEPNHOCK
    Member

    Lionel Stone is still alive.
    He sold his parts business to John Erb, who is in the process of reorganizing it.
    Harland Sharpe sells roller rockers, and so does Rocker Arm Specialties.
    The Paxton superchargers are serviced by Paradise Wheel in California.
    You can get a re-ground cam with R1, R2, and an R2+ spec from Phil Harris at Fairborne Studebaker in Ohio.
    All the Stude cams are solid lifters. Phil Harris sells them new, and reconditioned.
    The solid lifters will give you great service life and there is little benefit for going to hydraulic lifters.
    There's a current initiative to get a roller cam out there, but you need to add a $400+ set of roller lifters, and custom pushrods to get the most out of this.
    You can't do much better than an R2+ cam with stock, or slightly modified heads.
    Going to a stud rocker is just wasting money on a street engine.
    There are a few guys doing performance intake manifolds to help with the breathing.
    Performance wise, you'd be best to start off by getting your head work done, as this is the key that everything else will tee off on.
    Rebuilding a Stude is not hard, but remember these 'Stude specific' things...
    1) Cinch bolts on the wrist pins (follow the service manual to a T)
    2) Crank end play is set with shims.
    3) Oil pressure relief valve is external and needs servicing regularly.
    4) gear driven cam (fiber gear) should be replaced with an aluminum one.
    LOT'S of good info and sources are listed over at Sonny's Racing Studebaker's website...
    http://www.racingstudebakers.com/

     
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  5. DocsMachine
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 277

    DocsMachine
    Member
    from Alaska

    Thanks Deep! We were thinking of hydraulics simply from a noise and ease-of-maintenance standpoint. A roller cam would be cool, but sacrificing our good cam for the gear and $700, plus the lifters, is just a little outside the budget right now.

    We were mainly looking at the rockers to bump the stock ratio up from 1.4 to 1.5, which should all by itself give us a few HP.

    The rod clamp bolt was another thing were wondering about. It's not worth upgrading to a solid rod and a press-in or free-floating pin? That bolt just seems like a big weak point to me, but hey, this is my first Stude. :D

    Doc.
     
  6. Bonneville Avanti Dan
    Joined: Jan 21, 2011
    Posts: 242

    Bonneville Avanti Dan
    Member
    from California

    Doc,
    Jeff gave most of what you need. On the pinch bolt issue, don't be afraid of it. Many Stude engines have gone over 6000 rpms' and been raced for years with them. Be sure and use Loc Tite on the nuts and as Jeff said follow the manual. I personally have had them over 7000 rpm and never had a failure. The weak link in my opinion is the rod bearings. Since the Clevite 77 bearings are no longer available for the Stude rod there is a quick fix. Purchase the Clevite 77 )CB745HN) bearings for a small journal (2.00") Chevy small block (pre 1966) and then take the bearings and your rods to your local machine shop. Have them resize the rod (remove .020) to fit the Chevy bearing and grind the relief notch for the locator tab as the Chevy is on the opposite side of the rod. Then I suggest you look into the ARP rod bolts. For street the regular bolts work great. For racing I switched to the Wave-Loc bolts and I am very happy with them. Hope this helps and welcome the world of Studebaker racing. Come join us at RacingStudebakers.com. You can find all the details of our teams efforts with racing a Stude V8 at the Bucket List Dream Avanti project forum.
    Dan
     
  7. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 480

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, Doc;

    (& others interested...)

    Stude engines were designed & built, in house, & more-or-less old-world-style. So you just need to find out about the few idiosyncrasies they have & work w/them. No big deal, if you know about them...

    If done correctly, the orig Stude rod clamp bolt w/pal-nut, is fine. The rods use the pal-nut, also, btw. Follow factory specs on cleaning/assembly/torque installation. I can't see any issue w/them. For the street & mild racing. Really hi-po ?, well then... -> If you do need to change, I'd strongly suggest going to a rod w/the pressed-in-pin. (No free-floating pin, so less piston vs rod rock.)

    Don't bother w/the Paxton-style carb box, as it isn't needed. Unless you're into perfect-type restorations. Just complex to seal, hard to get thru when adj the carb, expensive, etc. A good carb hat is as good as it gets, & is all you need. W/a few carb modification, depends on which carb.

    I can't see the need for inferior stud-mount rockers, when the shaft-mount is factory stock. To watch out for: bushing clearance twixt the rocker body & shaft. Gotta be right, or else... Decrease the rocker shaft oiling hole diameter. Even the late-version is too big. Oil drain-back from the rocker area/covers is a problem at high rpm. Don't make it worse.

    Deep-in-hocks comment are correct. You *HAVE* to have the correct service manual, & need to follow specs. It helps to have access to the aftermarket guys like Ted Harbit, Mike Sherer . & a few others. & I'd trust their judgement on clearances, over the factory, for hi-po use. ANYONE that tells you to build it "like a chevy/ford/chrysler" etc, needs to be *RUN AWAY* from as fast as possible. For instance, the block 'n' heads were a hi-nickle content, & get *very* hard from the heat/cooling cycles. The tendency to smoke comes from oil getting into the exhaust valve stem guides, from the wear in the rocker bushings &/or shafts, coupled w/the rather poor oil-drain-back, leading to lots of oil in the rocker covers. Lots of chevy guys will tell you to "bore it & turn the crank & you'll be good to go". Well, no. Boring/cutting stones will disintegrate, & the owner of them, & then you, will be extremely unhappy.

    You do have to put up w/forged steel cranks, rods, ~ 9* valve angle heads, gear drive cams, rocker shafts, hi-nickle thick-cyl-wall block n heads, solid lifters, etc. All at no extra charge.

    Dick Datson had some good books/newsletters out a while back, but they're hard to find. Info is old, but rather interesting. He developed, by ~ 1970, a twin 2bbl street-ram that had an adjustable plenum, a "hit" range of about 1500 rpm, that worked very well. You'd have to make this yourself.

    Manifolds are a bit of a pain. Aftermarket:
    There are a few Al 4bbl manifolds, copies of the late factory Stude varies from ok to bad copies (literal 2nd gen copy, wasn't scaled up. Same goes for the Al rocker covers. Depends on who made/sold them), also some versions of rare old hi-po manifolds cast using the original molds, but these are very expensive. There were some adapters to run small-block chrysler manifolds, but they have a few issues of their own. & I've seen a new design 4bbl manifold, although I haven't heard if it's in production, yet. The Stu-V manifolds are hard to find, & the guy who has almost all of the patterns, won't let them be used for a new run, pattern copies, etc. Or at least I've not been successful in convincing him, yet, anyways. :) .

    Copies of the R-3 cast-iron "headers". Good, I'm told. Al water pump/crossover/t-stat housing. Ok, I'm told. The Avanti version is very hard to find. Distributers run from modded HEI to new Mallory units. & nice, too. A couple versions of the Stude-to-Chevy A/T adapters, one in Al. There was a blow-proof 1/4" thick bellhousing that mated the Tremec 5sp (IIRC), but that project has died too. (& I didn't get one when I could have... :( ). S.S. valves w/undercut stems, in chevy-size work well. Manley, among others, make them.

    As you may have guess, I kinda *like* studes.

    If you need/want to converse, drop me a line @nrgwizard@usfamily.net, or PM, w/ your ph#. I'll ring back when I can.

    Hope all goes well w/your Stude project. "I love it when a Stude comes together..." :)

    Marcus...
     
  8. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 427

    Mike VV
    Member

    The Stude heads(engine) will benifit from a good cleanup of the sharp edges in the combustion chamber and cleaning up the intake bowl area much like most other heads.
    No need to spend much time on the exhaust side, other than smoothing all the strange casting marks and sharp edges.

    You can go from just a cleanup to a full bore race type port work...that believe it or not, work well on the street also.

    A nice three angle valve grind also help a lot.

    And yea, as mentioned, the Stude Racing site is a good place to learn from.

    Mike
     
  9. flt-blk
    Joined: Jun 25, 2002
    Posts: 4,405

    flt-blk
    Member
    1. S.F.C.C.

    Here's a Stu-V to get you started.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. jalopy45
    Joined: Nov 5, 2005
    Posts: 336

    jalopy45
    Member

    Intakes could be swapped back and forth with a little massaging between Studes and Caddy's.
     
  11. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is not for street engines and maybe not for race engines either. But my young friend Zenor came over yesterday and wanted to whittle away on a Stude head jack Vines gave him. The idea is to continue the upward direction of the exhaust ports and eliminate the center Siamese port. So cut we did. This is what it looks like. The idea at this time is that the holes into the water jacket could be cleaned up a little and iron plugs that "fit" kinda , driven in. They would then be sealed with Braze or JB weld. Short risers would then be fabricated from angle iron and rectangular tube and welded to a port plate to which the header flange would bolt. I know people say not to worry about the exhaust side. Not sure why. Some of the walls were so thin it would have been a bad idea to port this head. Any comment?
     

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  12. DEEPNHOCK
    Joined: Jan 3, 2005
    Posts: 261

    DEEPNHOCK
    Member

    A Caddy manifold can be made to bolt on to a Stude engine, but the port mismatch is very bad.
    At best this is a cosmetic swap, and should not be considered for serious performance work.

    If you hack up the manifold (and the head) to get the ports close, you will have a one way swap you can never get out of...
    Jeff:cool:

     
  13. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    For my next act I am going to adapt Hilborn SBC injection to the Stude. Actually that's pretty easy. Adapting a manifold is much more complicated.
     
  14. aircap
    Joined: Mar 10, 2011
    Posts: 1,021

    aircap
    Member

    Keep the Stude guys informed, OK Rich?
     
  15. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not much to talk about puting injection on a Stude. Same as my injected Packard. The exhaust side is pretty interesting to me.
     
  16. turbostude
    Joined: Nov 8, 2006
    Posts: 344

    turbostude
    Member
    from minnesota

    Contact Tom Fritz for a custom made aluminum manifold. He has become a master after having made 3 for our racer. He is in Elk River Mn. The top of the plenum comes off on ours allowing different carbs and plenum sizes. I know he wants to try building a Tarantula style one for someone next.
    Tomccrod@q.com 763-241-1252
    Contact Phil Harris at Fairborn Stude for all sorts of speed stuff. He bought the business from Ted Harbit:937-878-1576
    [​IMG]
     
  17. zenndog
    Joined: Feb 16, 2008
    Posts: 161

    zenndog
    Member
    from Santa Cruz

    I will chime in on the Fuel injection side.

    Rich has a Hillborn set up for a chevy and it will be cut up and adapted to the Studebaker. It will probably need some kind of flange fabricated. Rich is very good at fabricating his own mechanical fuel injection set ups using various parts.

    Here is a link for his Dodge four banger which is running a Morton an Brett head and uses Ford throttle bodies to regulate the air for the mechanical fuel injection that he found in the junkyard, I think from an Explorer.

    http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,6487.0.html
     
  18. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The Packard injection is more like the Stude will be.
     

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  19. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 480

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Rich;

    A couple of guys have played that tune already. One guy never finished his, & IIRC, he did a couple of different versions - that I always hoped would pan out, & another guy had done a set that ended up on a (fuel - I think) dragster. Haven't been able to get the promised pics from the current owner - yet. Hope to get I&E ports, along w/combustion chamber shots. No idea on how well it ran, or even when/where.

    Somewhere I have some full-size tracings of head cuts, done a long time ago, by a hard-core enthusiast. The real problem seems to be just under the exhaust valve seat insert. Very thin. Proper porting is "interesting". Don't know of anyone who has the ultimate set-up. Hope you're willing to post yours when done, or at least after they've been proven. Glad to see you & others push the envelope.

    Marcus...
     
  20. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Zendog pointed out to me that this modification may not be allowed by the SCTA. I emailed the people who make those kinds of callings, but have not received an answer yet. Actually, it's zendog's Studebaker engine. I just own the Bridgeport
     
  21. DocsMachine
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 277

    DocsMachine
    Member
    from Alaska

    Thanks guys. Good to see a few enthusiasts still out there. :D

    If you say there's nothing to worry about with the pinch bolts, we won't worry about 'em. As I said, we're not building a race or Bonneville engine, we just want a good, reasonably strong and daily-driver reliable street engine.

    Intake's already being taken care of. We're building a sheetmetal port injection manifold, which will be blowing through a 5.0L Mustang throttle body, all of which will be controlled by a MegaSquirt computer. (That's the plan at the moment, anyway. :D )

    We've found a source for both roller rockers and a fresh cam, and the same guy (I can't recall at the moment, we've been calling everybody :D ) says he has pistons, rings, bearings, the works.

    I'm sure I'll have more questions as we go, but you guys have sure helped point me in the right direction.

    Doc.
     
  22. flatheadpete
    Joined: Oct 29, 2003
    Posts: 7,843

    flatheadpete
    Member

    Good reading here. I wanna get started on my Stude powered T soon.
     
  23. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Have you looked at the 4.6 SOHC throttle body? That is what I mostly use. Very clean. Usually no holes in it. See picture on Plymouth .
     

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  24. zenndog
    Joined: Feb 16, 2008
    Posts: 161

    zenndog
    Member
    from Santa Cruz

    Doc-If you don't mind can you post your sources and maybe part #'s.

    The Chicken Hawk, on the Studebaker Drivers Club site told me that Comp cams roller lifters#829-16 will work, he said the lifter bar has to be notched 1/4". I don't think you were planning on using a roller lifter but the lifters are for a Chrysler Hemi so that should help because maybe other types of lifters for Hemi's will work.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2011
  25. dv8
    Joined: Apr 15, 2001
    Posts: 1,097

    dv8
    Member



    I've got one of those.......


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  26. loc8tor
    Joined: Mar 5, 2007
    Posts: 873

    loc8tor
    Member

    I thought that you could make a SB MOPAR intake work if used with some wedge adapters....
     
  27. Panneton Bros. Racing
    Joined: Apr 22, 2008
    Posts: 2,551

    Panneton Bros. Racing
    Member
    from So Cal

    With a little work you can adapt any small block chevy windage tray. You have to cut the rear "ear" off where it bolts to the oil pump, turn in around the other way and weld it back on. Also may need to notch the front pan baffel a little (I used one of the factory Corvette/Z/28 trays that kind of wraps around the crank. I also had Juan Mendoza @ Flow Technologies (714)537-7405 (he is not too expensive, but he will take awhile) do the heads with 1.800ish Int. and 1.600 ex. The heads still flow like crap, barrely 200 cfm on the intakes and the exh. was like 52% of the intake (apparently Studebaker knew this and instead of making better heads, they put superchargers on them). I sent a good used R1 cam to Mike Jones Racing Cams now in North Carolina. He was able to get 210 Deg. @ .050 and .460 lift out of it. Studes have very small lobes, but do have .875 or .904 (can't remember which)lifter dia.s. I seem to remember the iron 4bbl manifold I had was a single plane with a plenum divider, so I used a B&B birch wood carb spacer and blended it in. I used a 600 Holley vacuum secondary and tuned the spring opening/jetting etc accordingly. I would seriously suggest custom pistons and modern rings if you customer has the budget. This is worth lots of ring seal/HP & Torque as well as reduced water and oil temp. If he can't afford the pistons, you may be able to use ring spacers and modern rings in the "old wide ring grooves". I also converted the single point distributor to a Pertronix II which has worked great. Make sure you assemble the shafts and rockers correctly (orientation of the oil hole in the shafts) or you'll burn the rockers out of it. Also use a modern fine wire extended tip spark plug.
     
  28. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 6,624

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I did some work for some guys that had a race Stude and I am pretty sure they told me the intake was a 383 MoPar. Not small block, which makes sense as the SBM uses the intake as a valley cover while the BBM has a separate valley pan same as the Stude
     
  29. zenndog
    Joined: Feb 16, 2008
    Posts: 161

    zenndog
    Member
    from Santa Cruz

    From the SCTA, the answer is no, the explanation stated that you have to run an OEM head. Hmmmm. Maybe we will call and ask about bolting on OEM parts, but we may just have to stick to porting only. For now, here are the pictures from this weekend.

    Rich finished the last port during the week

    [​IMG]

    Birds eye view of the exhaust valve seat

    [​IMG]

    Center ports, notice the crud in the water passage?

    [​IMG]

    Casting wire still in the head

    [​IMG]

    I cleaned up the edges of water passages with a dremel and a grinder using various bits. The main goal was to clean away loose material

    [​IMG]

    Notice the hole in the front corner, those were small pockets that were just peeping through. One for each port. I drilled them to 9/32 and tapped for 5/16 fine thread.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the center plug shaped out of cast iron, and a bolt in the hole I described above ( sorry for the blurry photo )

    [​IMG]

    Plugs and screws ready to glue in

    [​IMG]

    Glued, next the head needs to be re-machined

    [​IMG]

    Thats all for now. Zenon
     
  30. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 427

    Mike VV
    Member

    nrgwisard -

    There are two of us on the Stude Racing site that have spend a ton of time at the grinding/flow bench.

    I've managed to get over 200cfm out of a nonwelded, nonepoxied intake port at .500" lift.

    Until reciently, there was no cams commonly available to get over about .480" lift, so I stopped my testing at .500".
    I do know my ports continue to gain past .650" valve lift though..

    And luckilly, now there are cams available to .640" lift. Without MUCH machining of the block and a different cam, .640" is the max. lift available.

    Mike
     

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