I use a MSD AL6, with rev limiter. I will not run one of these again without a rev limiter. I missed a gear, over reved and threw a timing chain, lots of dammage. I protect my head with a helmet, I protect my engine with a rev limiter.
Mudflap261 - Thanks Larry, I was sure it was OK, just wanted to check. I am with you on multiple 1BL & 2BL, they just look right. CFM wise, you need 5 94's on a built 292 Chevy or 300 Ford. I've got 3 94's ready to rebuild and will more than likely go multiple carbs later. I was just interested in why the rev limiter was added. Those slant guys, always trying to test those stock rods. I am feeling better each day and I have seen a marked improvement in the last few weeks. I just work on the car each day and try to keep my mine off of it. Building this car has come at a good time for the recovery process. Thanks for the good word. Well I finished the modification on the headers that Dick (ThingyM) passed my way and I am happy with the way they came out. I have 3/4" clearance with the steering link and that will work for now. Re-installed the opened up stock intake just to see if it will help. The bore is 92% of the two 94 carb base holes. I have a 4BL Offy Intake with the adapter for the two 94's to try later. While working on the header/steering link clearance I am not happy with the length on the pitman arm. It was OK when I had the 13" steering wheel in the car, but I have changed to a 10" for some knee room and it is 2 1/2 turns lock/lock. I am going to make a new longer arm that will quicken the steering to 1 1/2 turns L/L and put the link below the headers with about 1" of clearance.
Joe Hamby - So Joe I would just like to get this straight, you are using a MSD AL6 elctronic box that has a rev limiter (RPM chip). Is it plugged into an MSD distributor? If it is not how does it work to limit rev's? Not trying to start a war about electronic boxes, just would like to know how it works. I have ran MSD 7AL-2 boxes and distributors for 20 years on my FM dragsters and altereds, good, dependable stuff.
Hi Old28, it only runs a stock distributor with stock points. And it does have those little plug in chips that plug into that box. And I have never ran stock rods in this motor, Groden Aluminum Rods. Stock rods will not fit. The crank has been offset ground and uses chebby small block size bearings. That Rev limiter drops off random cylinders, I think? Two motors down, no more without Rev limiter. Does anyone want to buy a box full of bent stainless valves and a few narley rods, one that looks like it went thru an industrial stringth blinder. You might be using the recycled iron from a block and crank. The crank was bent and the block had a few vent cracks in it. We did repair the head. We never did find the parts that left the front of the crank. That was on the run, where I was out in front, with a light of .0007, they were anouncing that while I was scratching my helmet(head). And those were Ross pistons, now I use Star pistons. You can not tell them apart. I forgot to mention that those valves (2 sets) are low mileage.
Joe Hamby - Well Joe, call me slow, but I can't figure out how this 6AL box is hooked up to your stock distributor, points and coil. I know how the box works and at the pre-set chip RPM the soft touch starts dropping spark to various cylinders. Are you using a regular 40,000 volt coil wired in a normal point,condenser, coil pattern? If you are how is the 6AL box hooked into the system? Is the box feeding your primary coil? I had never seen a 6AL or 7AL box used this way and I would like to get it straight as I may want to run one on the next motor.
Tom, just remember the arc of the pitman arm will raise the drag link as you turn. Make sure that it doesn't cause clearance problems at lock in either direction. Only mentioning this because I have had problems crop up after "simple modifications" that had not so simple overall effects.
64 DODGE 440 - Thanks Tom, The 3/4-1" of clearance is with the link in both lock locations. I even put the car weight on the front axle so it will be at normal ride height. All looks good and I think it will improve the overall steering setup.
28, I use a MSD coil that was recomended where I got that box. and just followed the instructions. Maybe I just got lucky. Because I am not an electronics guy or mechanic, and this is the first and only car that I have ever built, it took me a year and a half to build it, but it was still easier than learning to ride a unicycle that I did when I was 39 years old. Oh by the Ron Golden told me which box to buy. [email protected] Joe
Tom, I have a MSD 6A with a Mallory single point distributor on my Anglia with a 355 small block Chevy. The magnetic pickup connectors fron the MSD are not used. Instead, the wire from the distributor connects to the white wire from the MSD unit. The black wire from the MSD goes to the (-) side of the coil and the orange wire to the (+) side of the coil. Steering-wise, I just slowed my steering down. Much too hard to turn the wheels when standing still. Joe, sounds like it was an expensive learning curve with the slant 6. I Googled "Star" pistons and came up empty. Do you have a web address?
Bobw, we ordered them thru a guy that has a auto machine shop, just north of Tulsa (Owasso Oklahoma) Scot Johnston, that's Scot with one t. we sent a right and left piston (Ross) to them and asked that they copy them. I will look on line also. It only took about 2 or 3 week to get them, I was supprised. I also made my steering slow, because I wanted it to handle on the top end. But I like your idea also, I did not think of that.
Tom W. As you know,I run the VW steering box also.. But my pitman arm is 7" center to center with the steer arm at 8".. And a butterfly wheel. Steers like its power steering. I think if you get the geometry wrong it will steer like a truck..See ya Thursday..
That's cool, what I did on ours to speed up the steering was make a link in the middle that changes the ratio. It also served to shorten the drag link and line the heim joints up better.
Joe Hamby & bobw - After I sent a reply to Joe last night I pulled my MSD Wiring book out and saw how the MSD 6AL is hooked to a points distributor, and it all makes sence know, I'm just a little slow on some of this stuff, that's why I like pictures so much. With all the FM dragster and altereds I have run I pretty much don't turn the steering wheel without rolling the car at the same time. Just got used to doing it that way. With the dragster axles layed back so far and the steering is very light duty it is a good practice to get into. The new longer pitman arm has my lock to lock at 1.33 turns now. With my hands at 10 & 2 on the small 10" steering wheel I have a nice amount of wheel movement with a 1/4 turn each way. If I have to turn it more than that on a run, I need to get off the peddle. Joe, it has been my experience that the correct toe in has more to do with the car running straight on the top end than the pitman arm length. I have always used 1/8"- 3/16" toe-in on my 8.60 @ 145mph altered and up to 5/16" toe-in on my 7.20 @ 190mph dragster and both ran straight on the top end. As I was told your toe in must be as close to "0" as possible when you cross the stripe on the top end. Others may disagree, but that,s how I do it. I really like the feel and look of the steering link being below the headers and I have a good inch of clearance when it is in either lock position. I'm getting real good at making these pitman arms with hand tools. I think the 3/8" thick alum was fine for the short one I first had on the car, but I may make a second new longer one out of 1/2" Alum to beef it up a little.
Amazing how good it looks for having been done by someone who keeps saying that they are not a builder.
64 DODGE 440 - Tom, thanks for the good word. I must say that I have learned a lot about building and making parts work on this project. The main force into doing the work myself is there just ain't the expendable cash when you are retired.
ThingyM -- Whats with the "Mr Welch", even the kids on my street don't call me "Mr". They use TW because there is another Tom two houses down from us. I did not even try it today, I am going to replace both U-Joints with new on Monday. Just thought that it would be dumb not to while it is out. It's going to fit fine. I spent some time today studying the steering after we talked yesterday. I re-installed the short pitman arm that is 5.5" cl/cl and drilled 3 new holes on the front steering bracket that was 6" cl/cl. I am using one of the new holes that is 4" cl/cl, this gives me a little quicker steering ratio of 1.37 to 1. The old system was 1.08 to 1 (basically 1 to 1). This setup feels about the same and has quickened it a little like I wanted. I think I will try it there the first time. I was starting to set the valves today and found one of the rocker studs was loose, so I pulled all 12 out and I will clean them up and reinstall with new loctite. Must have been from that killer cam. Sure glad I came down yesterday, I think we got our full years rain today and I just heard the Grapevine is closed do to snow. I bet Butch is glad the race was not this weekend.
ThingyM -- The driveshaft went in just fine, must have been because we both measured it 5 times each, old age memory level (even after we measure something we are still not sure). Put new universals in and the trans seal is about 1/4" from the original mark. Was not able to make it to the track as I was sick all week and still have a ways to go. OK guys I need some experience on a motor problem, has to do with a cam that is in the 194 motor that's in the car. I have talked to the Cam guy about what happened and I would like to hear from some racers on this. While setting the valves to the cam card spec .022/.022 Int/Exh #1-5-3-6- & 4 were fine, turned the motor over one or two times and checked each one, then moved on to the next. When I set the #2 cylinder at TDC and set the valve it was OK, but when I turned the motor over and got it back to TDC the lash would be way lose, did it two times and figured that I had a problem. This is a solid cam and lifters. All the problem was on the #2 Ext the #2 Int was fine and stayed set to the .022 lash. When I pulled the roller rocker it was fine and looked like new. The push rod was clear and straight. The lifter came out of it bore as it should and still had oil on the sides, was not stuck or tight, The bottom of the lifter looked like it had been beat up with a hammer, the bottom had a raised center and was not mushroomed in. I looked down the bore and there is no lobe, looks more round and beat up. This motor has only 5-6 passes on the cam and lifter ( both were new, not regrinds). I know the cam is junk, but I really want to find out what went wrong to cause the cam/lifter failure. I have been building my own race motors for 30 years and have never had this problem before. What's Up ???????????????
Not sure about the tappet and lobe, but guessing the stud is pulling out of the head (IIRC you have a 194 and those have press in rocker studs). That would explain loosing ground that fast (2 revolutions and it's opening up). Maybe direct lube lifters would help the lobes in the future (isky red zone, Bill Miller, any of the ones with a lube hole in the lifter face). Good luck.
nexxussian - Eric, missed adding some information last night to my post. The head already has threaded rocker studs install. I found the stud was not at proper torque (recommend 50#). I would gess that it was 10-15#. Thanks for the comments. It is my feeling at this time that the stud torque was not the problem, as the difference in torque should not affect the lash more than .0005-.001. I hope some others will jump in on this problem, I don't want to install a new cam and have the same problem.
Well I got the head off the block and had a good look at it. I think while I have it off I will have 194/160 SBC SS valves installed and have the guide tower cut for seals. I am going to have Z28 flat tappet springs installed that are good for most any cam I will run. There is some damage to the #2 & #4 lifter bore and if is going to cost to much to repair I think that taking the 230 standard bore block I have and dropping the 250 crank in with some 307 FT pistons may be a better choice at this time to get a motor up and running. The 194 motor is a first year block (1962) and I was a little surprised at the different numbers for the piston top to deck measurements. My 250 motor was right at .035 on all 6 cylinders. The 194 was from lowest at .042 to the highest at .076. it has some old replacement .040 over pistons in it, but the deck does not look like it was milled
Sounds like the little 194 needs some serious TLC. The 250 with 307 pistons is what's in my T, nice ol' motor. Good luck, P=Dog.....
I bought one of those early 194's for the head. That's when I found out about the siamesed exhaust ports on those early heads. Scrap metal. Some of the slant 6 guys find quite a bit of taper front to back on the top of the block. Is yours random for deck height variation? Sure hope you build the 230/250. That could be a real performer. We will learn about the cause of cam failure tomorrow, right?
P-Dog -- Ya a little TLC + cash, I like the idea of the 307 piston, only problem is finding forged pistons. Cast may work fine as I am builing for 6200-6500 max RPM. What are you using? bobw -- Ya the early 194 with the siamesed are good anchors, this one has a later 194 small chamber head that may have been changed when they went .040 over. No the deck variations are lowest at the front and get bigger at each cylinder as you go towards the back. I measured at 4 places on each piston (3/6/9/12) and took an average on each one. If the machine shop has to bore and sleave the lifter bores, I think I would rather put my cash in a bigger cubic inch motor. There is a lot of good stuff on the head and they would work great on a bigger motor with some additional work. With .060 cut of the head and the block -0- deaked I can get about 10.75 - 10.90 CR with FT pistons. I hope to figure out the cam problem tomorrow and include a few pictures, we will see. I had high hopes to race this season, but it may be a short one at the end of the year.
Hi Tom, From what you describe it seems the short block received a basic overhaul. Just a hunch, but Im assuming the short block has stock rods. If so, they have should have a groove in the cap parting line that allows a metered amount of oil to squirt around the rod bolt towards the side of the block; Its there to lube the cam. If these rods have the groove, see which side of the block they are point to. I have put the rods in backwards and paid the price; its easy to do. If thats not the culprit, then I still believe you just lost the cam because it (the cam) didnt establish a good wear pattern upon fire up. It happens with the small diameter Chevy lifters on a high lift solid cam. Ive lost several over the years and now I use CompCams lube to excess and pre-prime the motor, then fire it up and immediately get it to 2000 rpm for 15 minutes to throw as much oil around the inside as possible. Skip Pipes
Skip Pipes -- thanks for the additional information. I got the cam out today and will have the pan off in the morning. I use the same lube, pre-prime with a drill and run RPM the same on all the SBC & BBC I have built. I want to check the lobe location in the lifter bore with the stock 250 cam I have in the morning just to make sure everything lines up were it should. Tom
Old28, I've had good luck in the past with cast pistons, to poor to buy the good stuff and to stubborn to stay away from the track till I could afford good stuff. I have cast pistons in my T motor, it's just a cruiser is all. Check Ross pistons, see what they may do for you, they've been good in the past. Good luck, P-Dog.......
P-Dog -- Most all of the piston company's will build a 307 forged piston and the cost is $550-625, a little high for what I am doing. I think I will try a set of cast pistons with a little extra side wall clearance and a good set of file to fit Molly race rings. Pistons and rings will run about $250 and have my 5.7 rods rebuilt with ARP bolts. I did find a Federal Mogul TRW number for a 230" piston that is forged and .060 overbore, but I can't find the number for a 250 or 307 piston. The 230 FT Forged was a #L2163F-60.
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