Projects SBF Gurus Input Appreciated

Alright my 1965 Ranchero has just received a full v8 swap so now I am interested in building a 5.0 roller motor that I had picked up a few months ago to drop in it. The goal of the build is to have a every day driver out of it, be able to get decent gas millage, preferably on regular not premium, and have some nice pep. I am thinking 300hp may be around a reasonable goal. I have read many build threads and articles but I would like some input from real life experience.
The other variables in this combination are a stock rebuilt aod transmission with what I am assuming is a stock torque converter and a Ford 8" with a tag reading 3.25 but it has a posi in it so Im not positive of that ratio.
I dropped the block off today, a 1987 5.0 roller motor with standard bore, to be machined and have the rotating assembly balanced. For the bottom end I am looking at summit brand bearings, oil pump, and hypereutectic pistons with 4 valve reliefs, along with arp main studs to prevent walking. I have read that the summit rebranded stuff is normally pretty good quality.
Where I would like input is on:
Cam - I would like a nice idle with good power, nothing too radical. I am looking at various roller grinds such as the E303 which from what I read is common but I dont know how it performs in real life.
Heads - I currently have and will probably run stock E7 heads on rebuilt short block for the moment but would like to upgrade to aftermarket aluminum heads such as AFR or Edelbrock. What heads are preferred with a lower budget, preferably not GT40/P, and good flow.
Rockers - I am reading roller rockers are the way to go but should I be looking for 1.6 or 1.7 ratio?
I am sure I will add more questions and any further input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

generic comments. You haven't mentioned C/R, shouldn't go over 9.0 with iron heads if you want to stay on 87 octane. However there is a difference in heat loss out of the chambers iron vs alloy. alloy conducts heat better than iron so you have to bump C/R a full point to compensate, something you have to account for. You probably should have decide on iron or alloy heads before buying pistons.

 

I have yet to buy any of the parts yet, pistons included, that is why I am asking for opinions. All I currently have is a new dual roller timng chain, Edelbrock performer intake, and holley 600 cfm carb.

 

Hypereutectic pistons IMO only if you are using efi. There is less of a chance of going lean or too much timing. Probe makes a set of factory forged line for a few bucks more,or Kb forged line is real nice also. Forged are much more forgiving and worth the extra investment. Main studs means a line hone so be aware of timing chain distances. They sell .010 and .015 smaller t chain sets for line honed blocks. 1.7 rockers on a cast iron core may cause a issue,I never had maybe someone else can chime in.
Arp rod bolts and square deck the block and you will have a strong runner.
Good luck with your build,
Gary

 

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too....

Like George said, the heads are pretty much going to dictate which pistons you need. And running a stock AOD/convertor will limit your cam choices quite a bit if you want to retain low-speed drivability. Buying 'bragging rights' parts won't guarantee power unless the whole 'package' works together. The key is to be conservative and avoid the 'a little more won't hurt' idea.

One thing I would do is ditch that 600 Holley and use a 450 Holley instead; unless you're planning on turning this a good distance above 6K rpm, the 450 will give much 'crisper' throttle response in the low and mid ranges.

 

also, the 3:25 gears along with likely tall tires will not help your trans perform properly.

 

I am more then willing to get a different torque converter and or modify the aod as needed. I may retain the c4 that is currently in it to work out all the kinks with the engine before swaping to the aod. I would lean more towards drivability versus performance with this engine as to keep this a streetable setup since it is my daily driver. I do have a 500 cfm holley 2 bbl that I could run on it for the time being or I am sure I can find a smaller holley on ebay and rebuild it.
For the pistons thanks for the info. I have a great machine shop and will have to talk to them about a few of the things you mentioned and see how they advise me.

 

I'm personally not at all fond of higher-stall convertors in a street car. They will allow a much-lumpier cam, but the cost is mushy low-speed response. They don't help low speed fuel economy either. I've got a 'performance' convertor in my avatar and hate it around town. For a daily-driver with good street manners, either convert to a manual (a T5 would work well) or keep the engine mild enough to run a stock convertor.

 

Should also mention that you'll have to bash your floorboards a fair amount to get that AOD in there as they're considerably bulkier than a C4....

Oh yeah; throw that 500 CFM Holley 2-barrel away. These are worthless on street cars (Holley only sold these for the roundy class racers who weren't allowed to use a 4 barrel) and will give even soggier performance than the 600 will....

 

With iron heads & wanting MPG more than performance I'd buy 9.0 pistons & a 260 advertised duration RV type cam. The AOD only helps out on the highway. If you get something like 3.73 rear gears you're going to get crap for milage in town same as if you had 3.73s & the C-4. The AOD just means they aren't spinning the guts out on the hiway with those steep gears. I used to have a Crown Vic 351/AOD/3.00 got decent milage. was an ex cop car so the 3.00s must not have been all that bad for going fast. With a 302 3.23 may be a good choice. You do need to decide on iron or alloy heads 9.0 iron, 10.0 with alloy.

 

My last hot rod was a 93 Ranger with a 5.0 with Explorer GT40 EFI and GT40 heads, ForgeTru pistons, and a TrickFlow Stg I cam. Weighed in at 3200 lbs and had 3.55 gears. Ran 13.40's got 21 mpg. I orignaly had an AODE and didn't like it switched to a T5.

 

The '85-'86 5.0 HO had a 600 Holley (4180C) from the factory, so that should be fine on your engine.

The AOD bypasses the torque converter in 3rd and O.D., so a little higher stall converter won't affect your cruise rpm.

 

I am appreciating the info. I was hoping to build the bottom end solidly and run the stock cast heads on it possibly with upgraded springs till I had money for the aluminum heads though it seems as though you may have to do it all at once. I am now looking at some of the very few low rpm grind cams such as iskys thats supposed to make power from 1400-5600 and would seem to be more practical for my application.

 

Yep, it did, and was too big; that's one reason those didn't get very good mileage as-delivered. It was good for the racers who bypassed the rev limiter and put in larger cams, headers, etc though... which was probably the intention.

The 600 will work, it's just the 450 will work better for the street. Look here:

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/CarbCFMCalc.html

 

I'd save your money for heads. The biggest restriction on a SBF.
Don't spend any money on the stock heads or gt40's, just get the aluminum heads. Especially if you actually want 300hp.

I'd recommend AFR 165's.
The E cam or a trickflow stage 1 would be fine.
The stock GT roller cam isn't bad either, it was good for 300lbs of torque.
You can run 1.7 roller rockers to get it to act a little bigger without affecting idle quality. Nice throttle response and torquey.
The performer intake is OK, an air gap would be better.
500-600 cfm carb.
Decent Headers and dual exhaust.
Mild torque convertor, say 2200-2400 stall.
3.55-3.80 gears for the AOD.
I'd shoot for 9.7:1 compression with alum. heads.

Should make for a nice driveable, quick little package and should pull down decent mileage.

 

IF YOU are talking about 300 gross horsepower, a 5.0 ho in stock form puts out very close to that. stock 5.0 mustangs with aod ran 3.27 gears from the factory. my dad has a bone stock 89 gt conv. with this combo.it is fun to drive and gets decent mileage. it is nowhere near as strong as the t5 cars though. make sure and use the roller cam no matter what, it makes more usable power at lower rpms. your car should weigh less than an 89 gt conv. so I would just build the motor up to stock specs until you save some money for the high horse stuff. My choice for a carb would be a stock autolite 4100 if you can find a good one. small cfm 470 I think in the mustang and comets .

 

You really should read this article especially the bottom line: http://www.fiveohinfo.com/performance/gt40-gt40p.html Which put simply,do not waste your money on stock heads! This is a good read too: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1302_six_budget_ford_heads_that_work/viewall.html Keep in mind if you exceed intake valves in excess of 1.94" you will have some machining required to the piston valve reliefs for clearance,overall for your build and budget the Flo-Teks would be a wise move.I would run these:http://kmjperformance.com/sbf-ford-...ler-rocker-arms-1-6-ratio-3-8-stud-mount.html over an aluminum rocker for reliability,Intake manifold choice would be a Weiand Stealth and for a Carb this because you did want better mileage:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08600vs/overview/ As mentioned in a previous post go this the forged pistons like these:http://kmjperformance.com/sb-ford-small-block-302-flat-top-forged-pistons-030.html 1987 and later 5.0 pistons were forged from the factory,why take a step backward? Don't waste your money on the Edelbrock Performer 2121 they make no power and only save weight which is why you can find plenty of them on craigslist and evilbay.

 

Regarding the AOD swap check out these pictures:http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/drivetrain/5280-automatic-overdrive-transmission-swap/ Windsor/Fox is history but the kit is available here:http://www.transmissioncenter.org/classic_mustang_to_aod_conversion.htm Here is a handy Ford cam chart you may want to check out: http://www.jegs.com/fordracing/ford_50l_cam_specs.html Jeg's has a close out deal on the "B" and the "E" cam with new roller lifters @ $280

 

The Holley 4180 was really a "stinker" period and should be avoided.

 

I thought they had 3.73's in em'

 

no, I don't know of any mustang that came with 3.73s stock.

From several years working and building OT mustangs in a performance shop, that's probably the best post in this thread.

If you want to drive a ton and don't care about having a mild sounding cam then stick with the stock cam and run 1.7s on it. AFR 165s are a great choice, Performer RPMs are up there too. There are a bunch of decent aluminum head choices out there nowadays (which is why running almost every iron head is less than ideal) but some are more than you need and some are less, even for a mild motor unfortunately. The patriot/e-street heads come to mind here . . . they are not a bolt-on and forget it deal, you have to change springs and be that MFG's QC department.

Here's a real-world example of a stock cam motor:



Completely stock 91 shortblock, stock cam with 1.7 roller rockers, ported Windsor Sr 200cc heads, ported RPM-II intake (fuel injected motor), longtubes, t5.

A good friend of mine's car although he sold it several years ago. Got 17-18MPG, drove it to the local 1/8 on several occasions, bolted on some slicks and went 7.80s.

Do build the AOD, do get a good converter. Stock is junk and it will make a night and day difference to get a decent converter. I would personally run 3.55s unless you plan on running a taller tire than a 28".

The carb stuff is all urban legend/mythical bench racing. I ran a 670 holley street avenger, had perfect A/F out of the box and got 14-15mpg in my falcon with a 306 and a rowdy hyd roller cam. Unless your setup is way off pretty much every modern/decent carb is going to give around the same mileage. Its all tuning and foot/throttle control.

 

Wow. Lots of disagreement here but I'm going to chime in anyway.

My 84 Mustang GT 5.0 HO came stock with a 600 Holley and a small RV or what Ford called a marine grind cam from the factory. T5 with 2:80(?) rear gear. It absolutely was not soggy on the bottom end and would easily get 20+ MPG on the highway. It was about 15 around town if I kept my foot out of it.

The E303 cam was designed for fuel injected 5.0s. There are better cams out there for a carbed motor, especially one with an automatic.

I am not a fan of hyperutectic pistons for a performance build. Use cast for a cruiser or forged for performance. Flat tops with 4 valve reliefs would be fine for either iron or aluminum heads. Make up the difference in compression with smaller chambers on the aluminum heads when you switch them out. You have lots of good choices out there but be aware that some aftermarket heads require different pistons because of relocated valves.

300hp from a 302 is doable but may be less streetable than you really want and would almost certainly need an aftermarket converter. Don't get caught up in HP numbers, just build for your type of driving.

 

I've built several HP street engines with hyperutectic pistons and no problems. Do not run them loose when they say .0015-.002 believe them. Detonation has more to do with quench than iron or aluminum heads.

 

A lot of good Ford info here Thanks everyone.

 

I appreciate all the information and mixed opinions of the hamb. I will be doing a bunch of reading from the links posted and as to some of the information stated to see which direction I will want to go. I have to replace the cam out of it as both the original cam and lifters were pitted far beyond use for some unknown reason possibly moisture. strange thing is wear didnt show elsewhere in the block.

 

hypers are a decent option, especially when on a budget and using something better than cast.

My 306 had a set of speed pro hypers in it. Made over 300rwhp. Ran fine for several years until I sold it and is still running as far as I know.

The letter cams are a decent choice for a "budget" build. The b-cam in theory makes more torque which is why they say its better for an automatic but really a mild 302 is going to make within 10-20hp/tq of another off the shelf cam with almost the same specs.

More overlap with the E-cam which of course degrades vacuum so its your call OP. The tfs stage 1 cam is a great ebay find/budget cam as well. There is a lunati grind that is close to same measurements and the old school split pattern cam was the wolverine 1087 cam.

 

A voice of reason. If you're building a 'daily driver', how often are you going to be running at WOT? That's where you make the big power, at lower throttle openings it's the torque you're looking for.

And I'll disagree with the 'urban legend' comment on carb sizing; it does make a difference, that's why they make different sizes. A 500 CFM 2 barrel won't perform the same as a 500 CFM 4 barrel (except possibly at WOT). Larger carb venturi, less velocity through the carb at any given displacement/RPM with all else being equal, a fact of physics. Higher velocity will translate into better cylinder fill. Yes, there will probably be a HP loss at the top of the tach, but how often do you go to red-line on the street? This is about throttle response, not something easily measured on a dyno.

I ran a 289/306 in a '64 Comet years ago just before the advent of affordable aftermarket heads. 289 5-bolt block, 302 crank, mildly ported 351W D0 heads, middlin' big hydraulic cam, Torquer single-plane intake, 600 Holley, all in front of a 4-speed and 3.25 gears. Car ran very well, would pull cleanly to 6500+ RPM. But part-throttle response below 3K was 'mushy', making driving in traffic less than fun. I then switched to a 450 Holley. The difference was dramatic; throttle response got much 'crisper', the car would pull harder at part-throttle openings. Was there a trade-off? You bet; the motor would start to lay down at about 6K RPM and was all done by 6500. But as I rarely ran the motor that hard, the improvement in drivability was well worth it to me. And I'll note that I spent time tuning both carbs, they weren't just slapped on.

If you're chasing HP, then go with the bigger carb.

 

Since I seem to be the only one with dyno graphs to back up my words:



Some reason it got cropped but this was the motor out of my falcon . . . 306, 9:1, stock windsor jr aluminum heads, 218/[email protected] hydraulic roller cam, rpm airgap, 670 street avenger, t5.

You don't have to chase HP when you add some compression, mild hydraulic roller, and a great set of cylinder heads . . . its just the average outcome to an efficient air pump. Like I stated before, I got 14-15mpg and I drove it a lot. It was my daily driver when I was in college for 2 years until I bought a OT honda because I got a job that was 30 miles away one way.

Seat of the pants dyno is subjective. A dynojet, to a degree, isn't.

 

I have to agree. I had a 289 '65 Mustang back in the late 60's with a stock 470 cfm Autolite. I "upgraded" to a 60 cfm Holley and lost seat of the pants performance.

 

Ok so I will look into a 450-500 cfm holley. If anyone on here has one I would be interested in purchasing it. I should also mention that it has a duraspark distributor with msd 6al box. With the kind of driving I do I think torque would be more practical so I am leaning away from the E303 cam and leaning towards something with a little bit lower power such as the Isky 371257-265 or the Comp Cams CCA-35-510-8 which are both around 1400-5500 rpm. For the exhaust I will be looking at headers but I am still undecided as to which style.
One question I will ask is other then price what is the difference between the Edelbrock performer 289, performer rpm, and performer rpm air gap?