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Saginaw 4 speed help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by LDO, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. LDO
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    LDO Member

    I pulled the side cover on my Sagiaw 4 speed to drain the fluid (no plug) & now i cant seem to get it back on.
    Does it need to be in neutral? How do i verify the trans is actually in neutral (it was when i started).
    Can someoe help this newb out so i can get back on the road. This is becomming a can of worms.:(

    Thanks.
  2. propwash
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    propwash Member

    needs to at least be in the gear it was in when you took it apart. Put the shift levers in neutral, then line up the the sliders to engage the forks....I only know Muncie, you may have to engage reverse on a Sag...not sure.
  3. chubbie
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    chubbie Member

    oops! you are thinking right, it needs to be in neutral. the sagi is easy to put the side cover back on. did you remove the bolts to the shift links? If not take them off. put the shift forks onto thier sincros. try to "center" them, this will be neutral. turn the input shaft to check for neutral. I'm not shure on the reverse, but it should work about the same.. now with the trans laying on its side, try to catch them into the holes on the side cover and move them twords center and wiggle things and start the 1st bolt. I don't have a sagi here, for test run or pictures. just memory:(
  4. LDO
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    LDO Member

    Forgot to mention, trans is installed on truck so added degree of difficulty...:mad:

    How will I know when trans is in neutral?

    I did place the side cover shift levers all in neutral, I will keep working on it.
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  5. rottenleonard
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    rottenleonard
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    lift the rear axle and see if you can spin the driveline.
  6. LDO
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    LDO Member

    Nope
    locked up.
    cant spin the yoke.
  7. Weedburner
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    Weedburner Member

    Beware of the reverse detent ball if you tale off the shift levers. It's easy to lose.
  8. rottenleonard
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    rottenleonard
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    At the point your at you can actually be in two gears, have someone push in the clutch and see if the d-line will turn then if it is still locked you will need to center both locker rings.
  9. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    You need to look for the grooves inside the trans that the forks run in that are on the side cover. One grove will be in a smooth slider and the other will be in a geared slider with the grove being offset to one side. You can grasp those slider with your finger tips and move then front to back. You will want each of those sliders in the middle position. Then you will have neutral. Then be sure the forks on the side cover are in neutral also and with the forks parallel to one another and straight up and down. Then the forks should just fall into the grooves and all will be good.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  10. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    To add to what I said before. This is probably your real problem. The reverse slider may have moved on you. It also has a grove that the reverse finger of the side cover has to drop into. It's a small gear that ride's all by it's self's on a short shaft bottom right corner in side the trans. It rides on the 1-2 slider (the big upper gear with a grove in it) all the time. It needs to be out of the straight cut gear on the cluster gear (it's the lower set of gears down in the bottom). If it engaged in the cluster the trans is in reverse. Just slide that lil gear so it's not engaged with the cluster. Good luck
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  11. 56sedandelivery
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    56sedandelivery Member

    Been quite a while since I had a Saginaw apart, and that was my new 1972 Nova SS. Could'nt keep second gear in the thing, it always wore the fork out. I put a Borg Warner Super T-10 in it eventually. It seems I had to use a couple of shoe strings to spread the fork levers to meet with the sliders; the side cover levers are spring loaded/tensioned, so it's hard to get them positioned just right to go into the sliders. At least that's what I seem to remember. Good thing it's a truck, should at least have more tunnel room to work than a passenger car. Butch/56sedandelivery/.
  12. LDO
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    LDO Member


    Leonard,
    yes, with the clutch pushed in, I can spin the yoke. How to I know when the locker rings are centered. i thought they were centered but the d-line is still locked.

    Here's what it looks like.
    Thanks for all the help. I feel like I'm making some progress...

    [​IMG]
  13. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    You have an early one. Try sliding the reverse idler forward just a bit and see if trans will free wheel. Hard to till by the photo but it seem's the R idler is meshing with gear for first gear.
  14. LDO
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    LDO Member

    Did that, still not free.
    did get the cover on but 1st & 2nd lever assy wont move.
    truck is always in gear and there is no neutral...
  15. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    The 1-2 fork didn't get flipped did it? The longer finger should be up top and the shorter one down. And are you getting the reverse finger in the idler gear correctly?
  16. LDO
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    LDO Member

    thanks Johnny, no the 1-2 fork is in correctly and as for the reverse finger, it should go to the right of the reverse gear correct?

    It has been giving me trouble though. It can't go any further to the right since it's not meshed with the gear next to it but it seems like it needs to go more to the right...:confused:
  17. rottenleonard
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    rottenleonard
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    Just a dumb question, the e-brake isn't on is it?


    EDIT, no you said it would turn with the clutch in

    By the pictures they look centered, as mentioned the reverse idler looks partialy engaged but you have eliminated that. I'm starting to wonder if the center bearing in the main shaft isn't seazing up, how did this thing work before you started this was it noisy?
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  18. LDO
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    LDO Member

    Leonard,
    ebrake may be on but the driveshaft is off. I've been using the yoke by itself to try to spin the output shaft and yes, it rotates with the clutch in.

    Trans worked just fine before I tore into it which only aids in my frustration!

    Let me ask this, when I re installed the tail housing, (yes, I removed that too), I installed the c clip into the groove in the bearing on the output shaft and slid the tail housing on and it 'clicked' into place. That is how I understood the reassembly instructions.

    Should I try to remove that again? reaching that c clip was a real pain though.
  19. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    There it is, the 1 to 1 syncro (or 4th) is not seated correctly. Meaning it got rotated slightly and causing a separation making it bind and causing it to act like it's in 4th gear or input and output are ingaged when there not. The cones are seated tight together right now.
    Question, you removed the tail housing while it was in the truck? Because the whole main shaft is generally removed with the tail housing as a unit, then getting to the C- clip is easy.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  20. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    ^^^^^
    [​IMG]

    Do you see the three notch's in each of these syncro's. There's 3 spring retained taps that are suppose to seat in those notch's. And right now there not, they're on the ridge instead and binding the syncro with the slider rub.
  21. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    heres what you do. smack with a hammer a few times then put in a muncie!
    kid i kid i have a sag 4 speed as well
  22. LDO
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    LDO Member

    The manual i used didnt say the tail shaft came out. I was told to rotate the housing until the window was visible then remove the c clip, when i did that i was able to remove the housing no prob.
    So do i need to reove the housing again and should it come out with the mainshaft and all those gears?

    Does it just come out as a unit or is there a retention device of some kind?
  23. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    See your not so bad off as you may think. I never tried that approach.
    No need to remove tail housing again. Just loosen the bolts to the tail housing so as to let it be pulled back a bit, then rotate the most forward syncro (4th gear) till you feel it settle in to the tabs. Then snug up the tail with 2 bolts only and see if all is back in place. This should do it. By the way, do you find it has a lot of drag or harder that normal turn at the yoke at this time when able to turn with the clutch.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  24. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    Funny, hammers don't discriminate. Muncie will do this same thing if not reassembled correctly. So what's your point :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  25. LDO
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    LDO Member

    Johnny, i realized (you can't see in the pics) but one of the synchros was up against the gear and would lock things up, it was wedged pretty good. Screwdriver did the trick and everything is good now. Filling it with fluid and going to button her up.

    By the way, I have a drive shaft that is tapered on both ends, does the pinion go on the longer taper? Makes sense to me but i'm a little loopy at the moment since I've been under my truck since Saturday!
  26. Johnny Gee
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    Johnny Gee Member

    Good deal, just about the same affect as to I was referring to. Which syncro by the way? As for as the drive shaft, sorry no answer. 1, I don't know that truck, and 2, I'm not a mechanic by trade. But someone will chime in I'm sure on the drive shaft.
  27. old soul
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    old soul Member

    oh boy. If you cant get it pull the tranny out.
  28. LDO
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    LDO Member

    Thanks to Johnny and everyone else that took the time to reply and try to help get me back on the road.

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