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s.b. chevy timing chain jump????

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Cannibal, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    I`ve got an 89 Chevy 350 w/69,000 miles.
    Yesterday while leaving a parking lot the engine stopped.
    It was running normal no rattling.
    Restarted ran for 2 seconds then would not turn over.
    Checked bat. and starter both O.K.(replaced starter)
    I can get the engine to turn slowly if hooked to an engine battery booster(300 amps)
    Turns slow started and ran for about 5 sec. and shut off abruptly.
    now wont start at all .engine turns very slowly
    It seams as if the engine is hydraulicing (too much compression,fluid in cylinders)
    I have not pulled all the spark plugs out yet.

    How can you tell if the timing chain has jumped,stretched,broke or whatever
    Any advice would be helpful.
    Thanks
  2. Junkyard Dog 32
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    Junkyard Dog 32 Member

    I would think if it's timing chain, it would turn over easier. You'd have one or more valves open on the compression stroke. Unless, it's firing while on the compression stroke and pushing the pistons back down... try pulling the coil wire and see how it turns.

    This one I'd like to hear about when you find out what it is.


    JOE[​IMG]
  3. choprods
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    take out the plugs and see if any coolant in the cyl's...[headgasket]or gas....[aka-"tea-kettling"]caused from a quadrajet[or any carb] that has a crack in the epoxy that seals the float bowl-opens up when hot,allowing it to drain the fuel bowl into motor when parked and hot.......also needle and seat open when this happens and allows the pressurized fuel in line from pump to carb to siphon into the bowl and "leakthru" re- occours.JUST A COUPLE OF IDEAS??????Good luck
  4. Threedeuce56
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    Threedeuce56 Member

    when a timing chain went on a buddy's malibu with a sbc,it was when he went to start it and it broke.It turned over really easily after that but would not start.I would check you're oil right away and see if there's any water in it,if there is it's probably a head gasket.In any case doesn't sound like a timing chain to me!
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  5. Junkyard Dog 32
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    Junkyard Dog 32 Member

    Kenny... You might be right. I had an electric fuel pump stop self regulating (no inline regulator) on my deuce, and it did that same thing. Turned over way hard, like it was overheated. Just lots of raw gas in the cylinders I guess.

    Is this '89 fuel injected? It might be the fuel pressure regulator...?

    Back to the timing chain... You could pull a rocker cover and see if you have any bent pushrods. Smashing valves might slow 'er down, too.

    Like I said... Let us know.


    JOE[​IMG]
  6. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    Thanks guys
    The engine has a throttle body fuel injection.

    Engine oil is clean no coolant.

    The engine quit at idle.

    I`ll keep you posted .
    Keep the ideas coming.
  7. 1oldtimer
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    1oldtimer Member

    check the bolt that holds the ground cable to the engine block (from the battery). i think it should be at the lower corner of the block on the pass side. make sure it's clean and TIGHT (and the cable is in good condition). also check the ground wires at the thermostat housing. sbc chevy timing chains give around 100k to 130k if the factory used plastic gears, if steel gears are used they last into the 200k's (trucks of your years were metal). it sounds like a resistance problem to me.
  8. Fat Hack
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    Fat Hack Member

    I had a small Chevy with a well-worn timing chain before...you could hear the chain slapping the cover at idle, but it never "jumped time"!

    Sounds like you have either a fuel delivery problem, or maybe something wrong mechanically...like a ring or bearing issue, or other friction-inducing condition???

    The slow cranking makes me worry...but small Chevys are cheap to fix/replace, eh? [​IMG] [​IMG]

  9. Junkyard Dog 32
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    Junkyard Dog 32 Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    ...but small Chevys are cheap to fix/replace, eh? [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Ain't that the gospel truth...
  10. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    Here we go!!
    pulled all spark plugs,none seemed overly wet.
    Engine cranks better but not like it should.
    nothing came gushing out on driver side.
    Went to passenger side.
    Two rear cylinders had misted out what looked and smelled like gas.
    Cranked again while watching that side and could see the mixture fogging out ( two rear cyl only)..

    I assume valve timing is off or the valves arent moving..
    My Chilton book troubleshooting says under compression check.
    "burned or excessively carboned valves or a jumped timing chain are indicated"

    also a special note "a jumped timing chain is often indicated by difficult cranking"

    If the timing chain jumped why would only those two cyl. be wet?
    Maybe bent push rods??

    Valve cover comes off next.
    I`ll let you know.
    Thanks again guys.
  11. Fat Hack
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    Fat Hack Member

    You might have a wiped out cam...

    Or collapsed lifters??? An ardvark in the oil pan??? An allergic reaction to friction???

  12. porknbeaner
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    porknbeaner Member

    Cannibal
    This is probably the absolute the wrong way to check for jumped time but always works for me.
    Line yout timeing marks up. Now take the distributer cap off. You should be either 180 out or right on. Anything in between there would either indicate jumped time or busted cam/bad distributer gear.
    Like just about everyone else not turning over for my experience has never been a bad timming chain. Doesn't mean it won't or can't happen that way. I have had them turn slow when the distributer spun a gear.
    Or like someone else said, perhaps a bad ground.
  13. Fat Hack
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    Fat Hack Member

    Ya can check to see if your chain is sloppy by popping off your dizzy cap then turning the engine over by hand with a breaker bar and a socket on the crank bolt. Then, turn the engine in the opposite direction and see how long it takes for the rotor to start moving again...this'll show ya how much slack ya got.

    But...if you're still cranking slow with the plugs out...you got bigger problems than jumped time, sloppy chains, burnt valves or wayward ardvarks....could be a bad starter or internal friction...

    Someone oughtta have a free small block Chevy for ya if it comes to that...they ain't worth much more than nuthin', ya know! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

  14. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    Pulled valve cover off passenger side.
    Very cruddy for 69,000 miles.
    cranked engine all valves are moving up and down.
    Push rods are rotating as the come up.
    Still lots of fuel coming out those two rear cyl.

    What could cause all that fuel to be coming out ??

    If the cam was wiped the valves wouldn`t being opening and closing.
    They all seem to move about the same.
    It does seem like internal friction but if a bearing was bad it would be loose right?

    I`ll check the dist next and see where its at .
    Thanks to all whove aided my frustration.
  15. Fat Hack
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    Fat Hack Member

    Sure it's FUEL coming out of those rear cylinders and not coolant?

    Sounds like that motor is whacked...and a victim of much neglect over the years?

  16. 1oldtimer
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    1oldtimer Member

    check the - bolt........
  17. BELLM
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    BELLM
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    Bad injectors on those 2 cyl?
  18. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    pulled dist cap timing mark on crank matches rotor pointing to #1.
    Timing chain should be good.

    after sitting all night and cranking motor it took a little while but fuel started spraying from left and right rear cyl.(not the two right rears)
    The way the engine sits in the frame those two cyl. are the lowest.

    Someone said something about fuel regulator.
    It seams as if too much fuel is getting in the cyl. and running back to the rears.

    There are two line attached to the base of the TBI unit.
    One I assume is feed the other return to the tank .
    Is there a check valve that could be bad??
    Too much fuel explains the sudden hydraulic stop. .

    Does anybody know of any sources for these TBI units.
    Specs or troubleshooting.
    .
    Thanks again guys.
  19. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    Fat hack I would bet its fuel smells like it and evaporates quickly.
  20. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

  21. choprods
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    Let me get this straight- does your throttle body have this 'hi po" regulator or the stock one.....?I have an intake and throttle body or two- [I de-computered"my88 pickup]if you need a part-just say so. I dont need em all....Kenny
  22. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    Here`s what happened next.
    got a fuel pressure regulator diafram kit.
    Installed it and new spark plugs cap and rotor.
    Motor started easily ran for about a minute .
    Started to load up and quit.
    Restarted and ran at a little more rpm but stopped abruptly.
    Like excess fuel in the combustion chamber.
    I did notice no oil pressure at the gauge.
    Could it be collapsing lifters and the exhaust valves arent letting the fuel out?

    Engine won`t crank because of fuel in the cylinders.

    Somebody mentioned a temp sensor that goes bad and the TBI thinks the engine is cold and adds more fuel.
    Anybody heard of this.

    I`m lost!!
    I`m gonna start a new post on the collapsed lifter theory.
  23. Fat Hack
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    Fat Hack Member

    Hmmm... collapsed lifter theory, eh??? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I used to have a 78 Ford F150 beater with a 400M in it. One mean sounding, hard charging bitch...but the oil pan was so filled with sludge that it lost oil pressure all the time...sometimes for several long minutes. The lifters would collapse and the thing would knock and rattle...and it would lose some power...but it kept right on running until oil seeped back down to the pickup again and it repressurized for another minute or two!

    Drove it like that for months until I sold it for $20 to a neighbor! [​IMG]

  24. Tony
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    Tony
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    A temp senson acts as a 'choke' of sorts. When the engine is cold, it tells the computer to 'add' fuel. As the engine warms, it compensates for that and sends the signal to the computer to lean the system.
    I have never seen a temp sensor do what our describing though, they ussually just run like shit, and more time's than not, very rich.
    Not to produce enough fuel to hydraulic a motor.
    This sounds crazy.. but i had a truck come in the shop that was running intermitten on a customer. It ran great, then like crap. It would even stall and not start up again.
    You get the point.
    The distributors in those truck's create a lot of corrosion inside. The fix for that one believe it or not, was the pick up coil in the base of the dizzy. the 'firing ring' corroded off the unit itself, and was not keeping anything in time.
    Pull your cap and rotor, and look below the weight plate. See if your pick up is still in one piece, or if it's broke.
    I know it has nothing to do with what you have done..but this did happen, and in many ways it had the same characteristics as yours.
    I have worked on a TON of those things at work, many tune ups and more distributor work than you'd think.
    They are a very simple motor even with the injection.
    Good luck.

    Tony..
  25. Junkyard Dog 32
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    Junkyard Dog 32 Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Motor started easily ran for about a minute.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Well, that rules out timing chain jump. Did it turn over easily at that time , or did it still turn hard?
    [ QUOTE ]
    Started to load up and quit.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Did it load up, or run out of gas? Have you checked the fuel pressure". There's a... Awwww fuck, what the hell ya call that valve stem thing on the fuel line?... Anyway, see if you have (and maintain) pressure. Try this. There's probably an electric fuel pump in the tank. Bleed that valve in the engine bay, to let off all the pressure (WATCH YOUR EYES!) Turn on the key, and listen for the pump to purr. (Which it will just to fill the line.) If it doesn't, that might be the problem. If you have a pressure guage, you can tell if it's a fuel pressure issue. If you don't , try cycling the key a few times to let the pump really build good pressure, then try to start it. If it starts, then, it's:
    A. fuel pump or the pick-up sock on the pump.
    6. fuel filter (some of the fuckers have two)
    [ QUOTE ]
    Restarted and ran at a little more rpm but stopped abruptly.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    How long did it run? Long enough to get hot? If not, I doubt it's the temp sensor. After you leave it sit and cool, will it start again?
    [ QUOTE ]
    Like excess fuel in the combustion chamber.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Sometimes things aren't as they seem. That doesn't mean that's not it, though. It's hard to tell from here.
    [ QUOTE ]
    I did notice no oil pressure at the gauge.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Did it run long enough to build pressure?
    [ QUOTE ]
    Could it be collapsing lifters and the exhaust valves arent letting the fuel out?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Might be oil pump. If you crank it for awhile, can you see pressure on your guage?

    I'm sure there's a way to read codes off the computer, by cycling the key, and counting flashes on the [IGN] light. You'll need codes, but that's a great place to start looking.

    Might be catalytic converter...
    o2 sensor...
    Gas line freeze...

    Start by trying to read those codes.
    They have 'em in Chilton manuals

    One thing I've learned...
    Only do one thing at a time. Don't make two or three changes, at once. You'll never know if you did something wrong, other than what the real problem was.

    Hell, maybe you just need new plugs and wires, or a pick-up coil.

    I'm pullin' for ya... [​IMG]

    ...I know this post isn't "traditional", but we're all buds, and we all need to get through life, and our daily drivers are a big part of it.
    Personally, I'd hate to see too much of this on the H.A.M.B. so let's all try to learn from this.
    nnnkay?


    JOE[​IMG]
  26. choprods
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    Damn man youre bummin me out!pull that distributor and see that its shaft/gear/rolled pin- is all right[oil pressure].........also lapse of running fire.....possible-no?
  27. Cannibal
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    Cannibal Member

    Thanks for the motivation.
    Engine sat all night will not crank.

    I did notice when I changed rotor that the ring under the rotor looked a little rusty.

    I don`t think lack of fuel is the problem.

    I`m leanin toward the collapsed lifter theory now,

    Last time engine ran it ran long enough for the exhaust man. to get hot enough where you couldn`t touch them.

    It could be Dist.coil. or something spark related.
    Thanks again y`all.

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