Technical Redirection: 3 speed, no, let's make it a 4 speed, into my '40 Ford coupe

After 21 years on the road, I am finding myself with a failing torque converter in my '40 coupe. Putting a 350 turbo in it was one of those decisions that I had always somewhat regretted, and I have always sworn that I would put a "3 on the tree" back in it whenever I pulled the engine the next time. Basically doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we did to dad's 34 last winter!

In an effort to do my homework, and also in an effort to use what I have, I've pretty much decided to put the old SM318 transmission we pulled out of dad's '34. It has a 1960-63 Chevy C10 bellhousing, which has a cast shift arm and hydraulic slave on the passenger side. I'm planning on using these, too, but am in the process of trying to work out the hydraulics piece of the puzzle, so I can figure the pushrod arm length, and the height of the master cylinder bracket on the adapter plate that I am trying to have made for me.

(The Ansen shifter will be removed and I will be going with a "3 on the tree")

I have a new 1" bore, passenger side stock mount style slave cylinder. I guess the questions that I have would be:

• What should the travel distance be on the slave cylinder to properly engage the clutch?

• To move the appropriate amount of fluid from the master to the slave, I will need to either have an equivalent bore/stroke, or a greater bore with a shorter stroke, than that of the slave cylinder?

Yeah, I could hit the easy button and just put in another torque converter, but 3 pedal hot rods sound so much cooler!

 

That TOB arm might be the forged one that has 2 different push points?

I use that chevy slave on 50s Olds TOB arms, and "working good"slave travel is at one inch. I am not sure if the Olds push point matches yours, but you can look in your old slave to see the old wear marks, to know what stroke it was using. Shove the piston all the way in, then measure to the outer wear mark which should be easy to spot. These slaves do not use the entire bore travel.

I use 60-62 stock chevy pickup swing pedals with that same 60-62 combination master.

If you don't get an answer, I will see if I can come up with the pedal ratio and the master bore...tomorrow maybe

 

Timely thread, I plan to use a hyd clutch in my T-Tudor project but I will be using '53/'54 Ford swing pedals with an early ford master. Subscribed.

 

Yep definitely two push points. it's down at my brother in law's shop, about 25 miles frome the house, so I'll do a little closers inspection of the wear marks on the slave and see if there is a way to get to the inner push groove. Dunno if there is a spacer, or that groove is for a different GM application.

I hadn't torn into the slave yet, until I was sure I could find one for the passenger side application. Fortunately, I figured out what the heck the bellhousing was from, and O'Reilly had a slightly smaller 1" bore. Stock is 1 1/16".

The original plan was to use a hydraulic throw out bearing, but I felt a bit uneasy about how long one would last, and I don't want to make a regular habit out of pulling the engine/transmission out to replace one.

 

Just a FYI, that shifter is an Ansen Posi-Shift, not a Hurst; it could also be an original GM shifter, as both the Ansen and GM one were made by the same vendor. But, with the "short" mount mounting the shifter further to the front, and not on the tail shaft, makes me say Ansen. You can probably sell that shifter very easily. I have a NORS, dual chamber, brake/clutch master cylinder, and slave cylinder if you're interested, for cheap; just send a PM! You're going to need a longer driveshaft and a course spline slip yoke, but you already knew that. When you go with a column mounted 3-speed shifter, the levers on the transmission are oriented "down"; with a floor shift, they're "up". Personally, I'd stay with using the TH350, or even a 200R4 overdrive, or at least going with a fully synchronized manual transmission. Your Muncie 318 transmission is a non-synchro first. Maybe you should try for a Muncie 319 overdrive? Everything else is the same, you just get overdrive. Good luck with your transmission swap. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Yes I remember reading this in an article in a '59 or '60 Hot Rod about aftermarket shifters. The C-1 corvette shifter mechanism is being re-popped by one of the Corvette resto companies.
http://www.zip-corvette.com/53-62-c...58-4-spd-shifter-linkage-kit-borg-warner.html
Its not cheap for the whole shifter, but some of the Corvette resto suppliers list some of the parts separately. This could be a real good source if you have a vintage Ansen Posi-Shift that has missing or broken parts.

 

George, I bought a 3 speed "Ansen" shifter tower from that auction site we all know and love, but it was MISSING the "trough" on the bottom that guides and smooths out the sliding, shifter mechanism. So, I bought an early Corvette Powerglide shifter someone had butchered up by welding a Hurst shifter stick to it (was being sold as a "Hurst") for $19.99, just to get the trough (it was local, Port Orchard, Wa., where Bremerton Raceway also located). Cleaned and re-greased everything. I have some other brackets, rods, and levers to assemble a working "Ansen Posi-Shift" or "GM Corvette" shifter from. I'll probably sell it rather than use it. The 319, overdrive, 3-speed trans I have already has a NOS Hurst Synchro-Loc, the OD mounting plates, rods, and levers. Probably sell it also. Just little projects to keep me home and out of trouble. Don't tell me they sell the trough! I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Well...that's cool info, regarding the shifter. Quite honestly, it has always been in dad's car, until last winter, and I never even looked at it to see what it was. I'll be sure to bag all the parts with it.

Yeah, Butch, I've got a "parts list" of stuff that I am having to consider, besides the clutch hydraulics. And the point about the shifter levers, on the transmission, I'd already thought about that, too. My '54 F100 had a 3 on the tree, and I was familiar with how the linkage on that was oriented, and I also have a few stock '40 transmissions, too, that have the arms pointing down and to the front.

When we had a new driveshaft made for dad's car, the transmission shop forgot to return the slip yoke, so I'm going to see if they will let me dig through their bin for the missing one, when I go to have them make a new drive shaft for me.

Pretty much everybody is telling me I'm nuts for using the SM318, but it's what I have at the moment, and the 1st gear is 2.94. If I could find a 2 line Saginaw 3 speed, I'd definitely be chasing it, for the 1st & 2nd gear ratios, since I'm running 2.79 gears out back. Overdrive doesn't get me much, unless I wanna run down the highway at 110mph. LOL

When I get running the numbers, by the time I swap my torque converter and have the 350 turbo gone through to fix anything that I have damaged, I'm out about the same amount of money.

 

I don't or can't find a spare master/dual clutch-brake cylinder to measure the 60-62 chevy pickup bore size. You should be able to look that up at a parts store or website like RockAuto?

My car uses those 60-62 pedals/brackets and master, but I added adjustable stops to get the pedal pads in a good spot. These are swing pedals.

My ratio, but you can do the math: Pedal length from C/l of pivot, to center of pedal pad is 15".
-the hole for the pushrod pivot is 2-1/4" from centers.

-the approx. pedal travel which is difficult to measure in an arc, seems to be 7-1/2"

This setup feels good, the clutch starts to grab in the perfect spot, maybe 1/4 of the travel up from fully down, and disengages good when moving the shifter at a dead stop. If you have trouble getting first or reverse without some gears slightly grinding, you need a bit more throw.

---generic info for others:

- swing pedals have pro/cons. One good thing is being able to move the pedal pad inwards or outwards somewhat, when the pedals are fully released. (so the pedals are not too close, or too far from where you sit). But these are more difficult to change ratio if you made a mockup mistake. Meaning, the easiest way then, is to shorten/lengthen the lower part of pedal to change ratio. If you try to alter the ratio by changing where the two upper pivots are, if you move the pushrod hole, now the pushrod won't be straight line into the bore.(some OEM are not perfect!), but I try to make it dead straight at half pedal, because the arc changes the alignment. If you instead try to alter the upper pivot, that could be a lot of rework to your brackets you bought/made.

On the OP's 40 Ford, I assume it will be pedals under floor, and because it will be a right side fork, it needs a clutch master under the floor. (or a cable, which I don't like to use)

-under floor pedals:
I "prefer" to never use a clutch master under the floor where I/we don't feel like checking the fluid very often. That is the only reason why.
- I would try to do mechanical-non hydraulic. If the fork and pedal are both in a perfect spot, it would be a simple pull back on the fork, from a tab welded to the bottom, under the pedal pivot.
-If the fork or pedal are so far off, you can use a bellcrank in front or behind the pedal cluster.(determined by what obstacles)
-A bellcrank makes it so easy to alter final ratio, by changing the linkage holes on either lever on the crank.
-A bellcrank also can have either a push or pull to move it. So, two levers could point up, or both pointing down to fit your build. Or, one up, and one down, to clear something, or get good alignment to fork


Back to the OP's 40 Ford. (Only if it has stock 40 pedals). If it were me, I would set the bell up in place and look to see/(visualize) if a left hand fork bell, would have a perfect location to have a simple straight rod from the 40 clutch pedal.

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I am doing mechanical/floor pedals in my '39, the swing pedals/hyd clutch are for a T-Tudor I have been rounding up parts for. Frank, what style pressure plate are you using, diaphragm?

 

I use coil spring, 3 lever stock Olds on my stuff. Diaphragms "sometimes" don't work right in certain applications....like our factory 4 speed 69 Dart. That car had a finger style but the plate was cooked. The parts house showed a clutch kit that said it was the same, but turned out to be diaphragm. Car was scheduled to be listed on ebay next day, so I just put that in. It sucks with the Mopar swing pedal that has an overcenter-design huge spring on the pedal, which helps depress the clutch at mid-point, but adds resistance up to that midpoint. It feels awful now. I will change it if my son ever restores the car he begged me to keep

Contrary, I did an early Olds 324 into a 37 Ply coupe that the owner bought a Centerforce diaphragm setup for a Ross Olds flywheel. Owner suggested a hyd slave with the T-5, but I moved the stock 37 pedals outwards to leftside 1.5" (factory threaded holes were already there, for what reason?), then I built a bellcrank to fit between the front X leg and side framerail. I got the ratio perfect first try, and you can't tell it is a diaphragm, compared to my 32. Go figure. The dual circuit disc master was now ahead of the pedals, and the clutch setup was behind the pedals.

on your 39, I don't know where your fork tip will be with the "relocated position" of your LaSalle transmission, compared to a stock 39. The stock pedal setup naturally worked perfect for my 40 with Olds, because of the stock 40 trans in it's stock location.

***one more thing for guys looking at clutch masters: Some years back, a local parts place showed me a Cardone Printed Catalog of clutch and brake cylinders. The drawings were excellent, showing if they were ugly, or what type of reservoirs, integral or plastic one, what type of filler caps, fitting size, bore size, and bolt pattern measures. Sweet...maybe if you guys can find that online?

.

 

Would it be easier to use sbc to early Ford adapter and then to a flathead to Chevy trans adapter and use stock linkage.

 

Hmmm. That's an interesting solution. I have the cast piece for the chevy bellhousing to Flathead bellhousing adapter hanging on my garage wall, but I don't have a Flathead to Chevy adapter. I see Speedway has one with the Ford throwout arm.

If I go this direction, I wonder if a stock Chevy pressure plate would still work, since I picked up a clutch kit yesterday for the current setup? If so, that may be the "easy button" that I am looking for. LOL

 

I thought the Chevy flywheel needed to be drilled for a Ford pressure plate.

 

I don't go on that site, but read all the fine print, in case it is a bell for a T5. That input shaft length is not the same if T5

5-6 years ago, I saw on the OFFY site, they still had the one you mentioned, and 4 types.

one was ford swinging TOB style
one was Chevy TOB arm type with side fork window
then both of the above but each with an( "A" suffix I think), for a slightly thinner bell so it would fit the 5/8" thick plate adapter to use an early Olds or Cad motor, and still have the input shaft reach OK

The offy ones were $460 I think !

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Diaphragm pressure plates can supposedly overcenter and stick to the floor when flatshifting if the linkage geometry isn't just right and there isn't a pedal stop. I haven't had it happen to me, and I haven't seen it happen, but that's what "they" say. In return they are supposed to have less pedal effort for a given amount of pressure plate force as compared to a Borg & Beck, aka finger style. Long pressure plates are like a Borg & Beck with a counterweight on the end of the finger, and are supposed to be the best of both worlds.

 

This what I went with. A Wilwood 3/4" clutch master, 7/8" Speedway slave and I believe a 32" hose also from Speedway. I used the inside pivot on the truck fork, bought the extra clutch master and slave rods.

It took a while to get the pedal to move enough to get a good stroke on the fork, you only need maybe an inch or less and the slave is good for 1/25". The clutch master was originally lower and I moved it up on the firewall and it works great.

 

I was rethinking about this Ford bell stuff. You are right on the pressure plate problem. The Ford bell with swing lever Ford TOB needs a pressure plate that mates to the huge Ford TOB surface. This will turn into a huge nightmare IMO


I'd put that Chevy right hand truck bell up on the motor to see if a left hand TOB arm bell might line right up with the Ford pedal linkages. It might.

If so, a 63-72 truck bell will have that same bottom cover, or George might know all the passenger bells that are newer than the 55-57 car type (which sort of looks like the truck ones). The cars had a full bell, except some old Corvettes?...but I'm not sure which passenger car ones take big flywheels if you needed that.

then if it can fit, you have all Chevy pieces that will fit together no problem.

.

 

I am using a 1 1/16" '39-'48 Ford master cylinder how do I figure what size my slave needs to be? Can I use a slave the same bore as a ford wheel cylinder and expect it to work well?

 

Just make sure the slave has good enough travel first. At least 1" to 1-1/8" min. On the bore, look at some slaves that were used. There is that Chevy, Ford? and then International also had one, and it too was a dual side to side master, not that you care. That Cardone book might have had sketches of slaves but I did not look. Some guys used one from a old forklift. It varies on how they bolt up. Some look iffy.

Bore, it's all about displacing fluid. Matching bore should be good, but just look up known matching ones to see what Chev/INT/Ford did. You can tweak it with ratios, at pedal, or bellcrank or last resort TOB arm

One thing I found out on mocking up a motor/trans on the floor, I ran 125 PSI air to the slave. That will not move it all the way, but the cool thing is that the air will "hold" the arm right where you help it with a prybar. Go real slow with the prybar, while trying to turn the output shaft with trans in high gear. As soon as you feel the shaft move with large channelocks, then there is your disengage point. Let go of bar and it stays right there solid, if you need to measure or whatever.

 

Thanks Frank. I am basically trying to copy the set-up out of the Ala-Kart, but I cant find any info on what slave was used. Your post gives me some ideas as to where to start looking anyway.

 

I drove myself crazy looking at Dorman slaves as well as others. There are so many variations for bore size and mounting. I went with the recommended bore for the slave from Speedway and figured on making a mounting plate for it.

You can also do a lot of fine-tuning at the clutch fork itself with an adjustable rod. In my picture above I machined up a spacer that floats on the rod so it has something positive to push against.

 

Looks like I am on the chase of the rabbit that @junkyardjeff kicked up, using the Chevy > old Ford > Chevy adapters.

After looking into the flywheel/pressure plate/throw out bearing situation, I came across Modern Driveline's web site, and looked at their T-5 solution. They make an adapter to use a diaphram style pressure plate with the clutch release fork in the Ford style linkage, using the smaller throw out bearing. I gave them a call and should have one to me some time late this week.


I also have the "missing parts" from my clutch linkage on their way to me, too. The bushing for the linkage ball, the washer for that, and a new clutch return spring and a throw out return spring, too.

Hopefully, weekend after next, I can start mocking up the bellhousing adapters and transmission, so I can work out the clutch before pulling the engine and automatic out of the coupe.

 

After a lot of thought and consideration, this project has changed gears, literally. I'm moving forward with the adapter to adapter solution, but after talking with several folks about the transmission, decided to find a later Saginaw 3 speed, with 3 lines on the input shaft. This will give me a lower 1st gear, of 3.5:1, which should make my clutch happier with the 2.79 rear gears.

I spent some time talking through the swap with one of my hot rod mentors, and he told me that he used the same adapter setup in his deuce roadster, and that I shouldn't have any issues with everything lining up the way that I want it to. He also stated that he was able to use a Chevy 3 finger pressure plate with the old Ford throwout bearing.

Until the transmission adapter arrives, I will be doing some transmission clean-up, seal replacement, and such, to get it ready to assemble to the adapters.

 

I remember when we used to put Chevy engines in old Fords using the Ford trans. We would use a '49-'51 Merc pressure plate since it was a Borg and Beck style like the Chevy and bolted up to the Chevy flywheel and used the early Ford TO bearing. It all worked as if GM and Ford planned it that way.

 

I know a guy that has a couple of these trans. Not sure about the marks on the splines though.
He is in St. Charles, Mo. Name is Max Davis and his phone is 636-352-9268. He had them from when he
was racing stock cars. Tell him Dennis gave you his info. D

 

Since you're planning on a Saginaw 3 speed, why not go with a Saginaw 4 speed? More ratios to chose from. However, you may be able to adapt that Ansen 3 speed shifter to a Saginaw 3 speed easily enough. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Yup, you could probably just add a separate reverse lever.

 

I was actually thinking 3 speed Muncie to 3 speed Saginaw, but using it with a Saginaw 4 speed could work also. It's just that an "old" Ansen shifter would fit the part better than something newer. Or, you could sell the shifter to me.
I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Man, I was just in St Chuck over the weekend. I'll have to give him a shout.