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Poor Man’s Frontenac

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Mac the Yankee, Oct 25, 2007.

  1. Okay, I’ve been putting ideas together for my T speedster (until I have money, it’ll stay as ideas- I know that no one can relate :D ).
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
    One thing that I had really wanted to do was use a 2.4l Quad4 for power, as it really captures the look of a Frontenac DOHC conversion, but from the things I have been reading, I’m starting to wonder more about the Ford Zetec engines for a few reasons:
    <o:p> </o:p>
    1) It’s a HECK of alot cheaper
    2) It’s a Ford in a Ford
    3) It’s a HECK of alot cheaper
    4) It has less issues than the Quad4
    5) It’s a HECK… well, you get the idea-
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Would love your thoughts on the two engines, and which one you would lean toward (and why).
    <o:p> </o:p>
    Thanks, Bill
    <o:p> </o:p>
     
  2. Dan Webb is using a Zetec in his Thom Taylor designed "Submarine",
    based loosely on the Henry Miller car of the same name.

    Pics are posted here somewhere.

    I think i did an album of the bare chassis on Allshops.org
     
  3. Horsepower67
    Joined: Nov 15, 2006
    Posts: 535

    Horsepower67
    Member

    Zetec's a better engine in general IMHO, plus better and easier power upgrades.
     
  4. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    Go with the Zetec, I don't know a thing about it but Ford in Ford always looks best to me.
     

  5. I saw the pics of the Golden Sub II- that's what got me thinking...
     
  6. Ole don
    Joined: Dec 16, 2005
    Posts: 2,915

    Ole don
    Member

    Is the Zetec related to the motors in the Focus midget serries?
     
  7. Don,

    I don't know- maybe?

    I guess my biggest issue with the Zetec is that the exhaust comes out the driver's side. I really wanted to use an engine with pass-side exhaust so that I could run it along the side of the body, which I can do with the Quad4.
     
  8. My Dad and I had a Quad 442 in the early nineties. It was a Calais with a Quad 4 and a 5 speed, the engine was rated at 190 HP. It had an impressive amount of power, but had a tendency to blow head gaskets. Not a bad ride for a 17 year old kid (at the time).

    I pegged the speedo once, it read 140. Was it accurate? IDK, but it was purty fast.

    Jay
     
  9. I have heard that using proper gaskets and letting the engine warm up before pushing it (novel concept, huh?) alleviate most of the issues with the Quad4.
    What blows me away is the difference in price- especially for a used engine!
     
  10. fur biscuit
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 7,828

    fur biscuit
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    anymore pictures of the Sub 2?

    anyways how much is a zetec motor? you can build a jiggler fronty for about 7 grand.
     
  11. Maybe on the 2.4's but ours was a 2.3. The only time warming it up made a difference is when it came time to AET (emissions test) it, then it HAD to be steaming hot, or it'd fail! I took it in once, it failed, the tech told me to go out on the freeway and "floorboard it" a couple times, then bring it back. It passed then. ;)

    Mom had a Sunfire with a 2.4, good engine. But it ran "tinnier" than the 2.3, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, my brother missed a shift with that getting on the expressway and lunched the head. I found out that advancing the cams made a BIG difference in the power level. Like I said, we were kids, didn't know any better, all our shop teachers were RWD guys. I'd imagine that they teach that kinda stuff now with imports being hot.

    Jay
     
  12. garvinzoom
    Joined: Sep 21, 2007
    Posts: 1,169

    garvinzoom
    Member

    I would run the Zetec. I had a 01 Focus and it was probaly the only real good part on the car. I have a Mazda 3 as a DD currently and it is pretty much the same engine with a different head and it runs really good. The Quads were junk IMO although the later designs were not nearly as bad about headgaskets.
     
  13. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Mac I see in your bio that you have your heart set on a Ford Speedster and the Chevrolet brothers built some pretty decent OHC conversions for Ford speedsters. If you want to build a poor man's Frontenac then right side exhaust would be preferable. I am not knowledgeable on the Zetec and for the sake of argument lets say it is better, but no matter how much you rationalize it will never be a poor man's Frontenac. That right side exhaust is hard to miss on the Frontenac conversion cars. The Chevrolet brothers did build a DOHC conversion in the mid twenties that with a bit of imagination you could get the Quad 4 to look somewhat akin to a Frontenac. You would have to have a new cam cover cast but that is easy stuff. The exhaust is easy and with a few accessories to make it look period it is not that crazy of a plan. I believe there is a photo on the Museum of Speed website and somewhere I have photos. Sadly I passed on several Frontenac conversions over the years and I kick myself regularly (plus when I seemed to find one my wallet always seemed to be a bit lite). By the way if you stumble on anything Frontenac circa 1916, I will find a way to stretch my budget, as well as one of the 183 c.i. Frontenacs like the photo below. Ed Roy restored this engine for the Indianapolis Speedway and I corresponded with him on the restoration. It is alleged to be the winning 1920 engine that was in the Monroe. I would love to see this engine be placed in a recreation of one of the beautiful albeit somewhat rotund 1920 Frontenacs. You have to figure in an era where the boys across the pond were regularly kicking our collective American buts the Chevrolet brothers stepped up and became the first back to back manufacturer to win the Indy 500. Sadly, examples of their beautiful creations are about as rare as hens teeth. Too bad. Good luck with your project-Jim
     

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  14. Furbiscuit- No new pics of the Sub 2- I'm waitin' with baited breath!

    Oh, and keep those pics of yours coming- I get a real kick out of whatever seems to be rumblng in/out of your shop!

    jimdillion- thanks for all of the input, especially your info on the Monroe Special. I know those bodies are a bit odd, yet very distinct (I've loved them since I saw my dad's Aurora kit of it when I was little). I agree about the exhaust
     
  15. Man, my computer is tickin' me OFF:mad:

    Sorry for the dropped sentence there, jimdillon...

    Again, I agree about the passenger side exhaust, which is one of the main reasons I have thought heavily about the Quad4. In regard to the valve covers, I had hoped to use the earlier 2.3l covers, which are solid (more like a Fronty), and deal with the cam cover for the time being until I could come up with something more realistic/accurate.

    Oh, furbiscuit, Quad4's usually run about $1000-$1500, and Zetecs are about half of that. I'm not looking to do any real hopping up of the engines, considering that it would go into a car that would probably weigh less than a ton. While I would LOVE to own a real Fronty Ford, my current ocupation (Elementary Music Teacher) makes that quite an impossibility, not to mention going after my Master's as well.

    :rolleyes:
     
  16. Jim,

    As always, thanks for the wealth of info- here is a pic from Speedy Bill's of the Fronty DOHC that I was thinking of fashioning the Quad4 after- The cam cover would need to be reshaped, and the earlier 2.3l Quads had valve covers without the indentations that could be used, or fabricate new ones with the Frontenac logo. Anyway, I know it's a stretch, but would give me the "look" of a Fronty without selling my kids into indentured servitude and the reliability of a newer drivetrain.
     

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  17. I think the Ecotec motors have the exhaust on the right.

    Not sure what you'd use for a transmission.
     
  18. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member


    Here is a bit of a flashback for you Mac, and maybe a first time viewing for others. The Aurora Monroe Special was part of an Indy Car series that came out in 1958. I might ruin the value of this kit and build it some day.:D
     

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  19. Phil1934
    Joined: Jun 24, 2001
    Posts: 2,716

    Phil1934
    Member

    Since the Zetec was in a FWD you could just buy its header which would run under the pan to the passenger side. Then there's the later Duratec with passenger exhaust but it must have a custom bellhousing for $500.
    If Zetec works, there is a bellhousing, T9 5 speed and shifter for sale for $450 on the net now.
     

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  20. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,291

    jimdillon
    Member

    Mac, the earlier version may be a bit easier to disguise and making new cam covers would not be too hard. Somewhere I have a rudimentary blueprint of one of the 1916 Frontenac 4 OHC engines (not Ford based) but to build one from scratch would require me finding a pot of gold somewhere as well (hopefully I'll trip on one).Your project would be fun and not too over the top money wise. The key may be picking a body that stands out for one reason or another.-Jim
     
  21. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,198

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Check out Jim Culbert's OHV for the T. CAE shop was in Lemon Grove and I saw at least 3 Culbert heads at the Big 3 Swap Meet in February.
     
  22. zimm
    Joined: Jan 22, 2006
    Posts: 802

    zimm
    Member
    from iowa

    all i know is i hate quad 4's just pulled one apart 3 rodbearing spun and leaking head gasket its $2600 for a long block and you cant find a short block cam bearing are week the junk yard have a waiting list for em. ide go with the ford
     
  23. Phil1934
    Joined: Jun 24, 2001
    Posts: 2,716

    Phil1934
    Member

    For any inline, Ford,GM or Mopar, 4 or 6, check with Gerry Dedonis at Kansas Racing Products. They make the fours with V8 heads but get a deal on factory engines and are routinely offering to get them for $1000 or less.
     
  24. Guys, thanx again for all the input- and keep it coming!

    37- thanks for the flashback- those Aurora kits were great fo their time! Have you seen the Etzel resin kits? They were made in the late 80's-early 90's. Very talented cottage industry pattern maker- he did the Monroe, Duesenberg Indy racers, an offy, and Frank Lockhart's LSR, as well as a few others.

    Jim- Man, I wishin' you a pot of gold right now- it would be great to see some of those heads recast- Roof 16 valve, Fronty DOHC, etc... Iv'e played around with TurboCad and come up with a body that captures the lines of a RaceWay 2 seater, but with the cockpit move back a bit for my legs (it stinks to be 6'6" and love these kinds of cars- guess it's my curse). If I can ever get the ol' PC to follow my directions, I'll post a pic (wish I knew how to extract from TurboCad).
     
  25. GZ
    Joined: Jan 2, 2007
    Posts: 1,273

    GZ
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Detroit

    And how does using an engine like this make it a Model T?????? If you use a 350 Chevy in your period rod, do you still call it a Flathead??????
     
  26. Bigcheese327
    Joined: Sep 16, 2001
    Posts: 6,694

    Bigcheese327
    Member

    Period or not, they do look pretty cool in a T.

    [​IMG]

    -Dave
     

  27. "Flathead" refers to the driver.

    Kind of like Frankenstein.:rolleyes:
     
  28. BigCheese- I love that build- have saved a few photos of it (post more if you have'em)

    GZ- why wouldn't it be a T- just because I'm using a more modern drivetrain? It's a four cylinder that has the basic look of a Frontenac (the design is based on one of the greatest racing engines in history- the Offenhauser/Miller 4) and it will be going into a T chassis with a RaceWay body that will only be changed slightly so that I can fit in the darned thing!
    I DIDN'T say that it would be a T engine- never did. Sorry, but your argument makes no sense.
     
  29. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member


    Just read that and went out and sat in my Morton & Brett, I'm 6'0" and my foot sits flat against the firewall, and I cant extend my leg any futher. that is 45 inches firewall to bottom of the seat back. There is a taper top to bottom so firewall to top of the tail is 49 1/2. Upholstery won't bee all that thick, and I won't know were the pedals are until I get it on a chassis. Eyelever over the cowl flair is 4 inches, feels very racy.:D
     
  30. 37-

    When I had first "finished" my drawing (oh, I was SO proud of myself), I measured off the distance from the firewall to the rear bulkhead, and the height of the firewall and bukhead in order to gain some perspective. I also wanted to make sure that I was sitting low enough in the body so as not to be sticking out and looking all gawky...

    My knees were at my ears! This is what prompted me to "adjust" the body so that I could steer, shift, and essentially breath while inside this thing.

    I'm hoping to do a mockup of the body within the next 6 months, so that I can have a little fun hammering while school's out for summer...
     

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