Pontiac HEMI thread Mickey Thompson, Jack Gifford, Steve Barcak

A few people here were asking about my M/T HEMI stuff and I did not want to hijack another thread so started this one.

Pontiac motor division, as well as other GM divisions, were making and selling race cars and racing parts intended for offroad use. This was from about 1959 to January 1963 when, overnight, Pontiac was not allowed to further their racing efforts. From Jan '63 onward, only Ford and Chrysler actually had factory race cars and teams, etc.
In addition to their own racng and development operations, all the disivisions, including Pontiac, also had outside people and companies directly developing, racing and selling parts to promote their own racing interests. In the 1959-jan 1963 time frame, Mickey Thompson was with Pontiac in this effort. Ray Nichols and Smokey Yunick were 2 others.
Some of the 'fruit' from this effort for Pontiac was land speed reconds and runs in 1959 and 1960 at Bonneville. In 1960, M/T drove his 4 engined, Pontiac powered, Challenger to a 406mph average in a single pass. At the time, that made him the fastest man on wheels regardless of type ( wheel driven, thrust propelled, jets, rockets, etc,). In 1961 Pontiac power crushed many standing mile and kilo records at March AFB in Ca. Many records were also set on the water with Pontiac power.
In the spring of 1962, M/T company developed a HEMI head and related parts to fit the Pontiac engine. Chrysler had gotten out of the HEMI business in 1958 and no one had messed with HEMI stuff in about 3-4 years.
By late summer, the parts were ready, M/T & company assembled it on one of their rail dragsters and headed for the biggest drag race of them all, the US Indy Nationals. as a result, they ended up beating EVERYONE and took Top Eliminator. As an example of who they beat...they kicked Connie Kalitta in the semis and beat Don Garlits in the final to take the win.
Things were going very well in the racing world for Pontiac in 1962, but that ended about mid year for the 1963 models in Januarly. and as they say.... the rest is history.

Here are some pics of some of the HEMI stuff I have. I'll be posting more and if anyone wants to share what they know, or has questions, about the Pontiac HEMI, I encourage all to participate.

I will have my M/T HEMI stuff on display at my Pontiac Heaven event and also at the Nostalgia drags the following day here in Phoenix April 4,5 at Speedworld.

Also, there is HEMI info and pics all over my site on- race car, boats, and history pages if interested.
thank you,
Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org
<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
</DIR>

 

3 sets of heads !! thats just showing off

Cool thread hope to learn more

 

Not showing off, merely showing what I have collected. Actuallty, I have 7 heads, there is another one not in the pic.

Here are some pics from 1962...

Steve
www.pontiacheaven.org

<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
</DIR>

 

Nice

 

Did M/T also make some hemi heads for the 427 ford?.About 15 yrs ago there was a real thunderbolt for sale that was supposed to have been one of two Mickey prepped with his own hemi heads.

 

You make us Pontiac Guys Proud ! Keeping the faith of a great American Engine. The M/T parts could'nt be in better hands.

 

Yes, the first T-bolt built, that Jess Tyree drove had them, I'm not aware of another but both Thompson and Tyree switched to Ford from Pontiac. What some what made these short lived in popularity is the SOHC was introduced shortly after the FE M/T heads.

Applekrate, man that's some awesome stuff. Do have any of M/T's aluminum Pontiac blocks?

 

I've heard that the push rods in M/T Pontiacs were prone to breakage, do to the geometry and length necessary, that is at least on the fuel motors. Have you had any issues in using them, or found a way to correct this? This was the reason given for Brutus to be run with a 392 in place of the Hemi Pontiac.

 

"Did M/T also make some hemi heads for the 427 ford?.About 15 yrs ago there was a real thunderbolt for sale that was supposed to have been one of two Mickey prepped with his own hemi heads."
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"Yes, the first T-bolt built, that Jess Tyree drove had them, I'm not aware of another but both Thompson and Tyree switched to Ford from Pontiac. What some what made these short lived in popularity is the SOHC was introduced shortly after the FE M/T heads."


I agree, this is true. After the GM racing ban in Jan '63 most all of the GM teams switched to Ford, Mercury or Chrysler.

Here are some examples-
1. Thompson went with Ford.
2. Sox and Martin went from chev to Plymouth
3. Don Nicolson went from cevh to Mercury
4. Arlen Vanke went from Pontiac to Mopar, etc
5. Even Bill Jenkins went to Dodge and became one of the "Dodge boys" for a time.


The FE Ford engine has a very similiar bore spacing as Pontiac plus they both have 10 head bolt holes too. It was a simple matter of modifying what they had for the Pontiac to fit the Ford. The Ford HEMI is not the same as the Pontiac though. the Pontiac used a 'conventional' dual rocker shaft set up, like the 392. The Ford was quite different.
I have Ford HEMI pics to share too. In addition to the Thunderbolt HEMI 427, there was at least one other. It is a '63 Galaxy with 427 M/T HEMI power. My friend in Prescott, Az owns it .
Also, all the Pontiac HEMI intakes were for blowers. M/T did make a 2/4 intake for the HEMI Ford. The galaxie has the 2-4s. If anyone has the '64 M/T catalog ( the most common one), there is a pic of Mickey with a blown Ford 427 HEMI.
I agree that Ford must have not wanted to look too much like their enemy ( competition) Mopar and decided to build their own weapon... the SOHC cammer 427.


Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org

<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
</DIR>

 

out of curiosity... how much would a pair of pontiac hemi heads cost now?

 

Wow, those heads look like Early Chrysler. I was told the Early Chrysler Hemi head bolt pattern was close enough as to bolt the Chrysler Hemi heads to the Pontiac block... Yet it was discovered later that the Pontiac lower end could not handle the power output. Is this true??

 

The t bolt with the MT hemi heads is here in the Vancouver area, I have seen it at the old time drags and it is beauty! It also has a rare set of MT radir style mags on it. The car was burgudy with gold leaf lettering but I cant remember the name on it .

 

$1500 for a head setup back in 1962 was some serious bucks. By '62, the '57 and '58 Chryslers with 392's must have been hitting the second rounds and probably could have been had pretty cheap. Seems like kind of a no brainer just to get a 392 back then unless you were just some very hard core Pontiac diehard.

Kind of cool regardless, I have to admit. But, honestly, how did one of these set-ups fare against all the well known 392's during the time period? If you are going to copy something to try to beat it at it's own game, better hope you actually can I guess.

 

Wasn't Ford's "Shotgun" motor a hemi? Like Bob Glidden had? At Turkey Run there was one in an "A" hot rod.

 

Ever consider putting that extra head on one of them little Pontiac 4 bangers.
Crazy cool if it would work.

 

"Wasn't Ford's "Shotgun" motor a hemi? Like Bob Glidden had? At Turkey Run there was one in an "A" hot rod."

The Ford "Shotgun" was officially called the Boss 429. Ford never used the term 'Hemi" but, instead, called it's valve layout and chamber design a 'crescent' shape. I am not as knowledgeable as some others here on Boss 429s but, they were indeed Hemis just not called that by Ford.
Also, the Hemis had their valves at 12 and 6 o'clock where the Boss 429 or Shotgun had valve locations at roughly 2 and 8 o'clock.


Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org


<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
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"Ever consider putting that extra head on one of them little Pontiac 4 bangers.
Crazy cool if it would work."

Yes I have considered it and also have plans to do so. M/T and others did it in the 60s very successfully in fact.
Here is a pic of a dragster with a blown Hemi headed Tempest 195. This is out of "Tach" magazine which was the AHRA publication. this issue in the spring in '67 featured the AHRA Winternationals at Beeline dragway outside of Phoenix, Az.
The caption says "..... after setting a world record on Saturday, proceeded to mow down a crack field in competition eliminator for the title....." Car was run by Larry Edwards. I don't know much more about it.

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org


<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
</DIR>

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"$1500 for a head setup back in 1962 was some serious bucks. By '62, the '57 and '58 Chryslers with 392's must have been hitting the second rounds and probably could have been had pretty cheap. Seems like kind of a no brainer just to get a 392 back then unless you were just some very hard core Pontiac diehard."
The price was actually listed as $1,000 complete, not $1,500. Still a lot of money, agreed. Heads were desigined for high end classes, not stockers.

"Kind of cool regardless, I have to admit. But, honestly, how did one of these set-ups fare against all the well known 392's during the time period? If you are going to copy something to try to beat it at it's own game, better hope you actually can I guess."

Well, they never really did get a chance to prove themselves that much against the hundreds of 392s.

While the heads and related parts were listed in 3 catalogs of his. Very few were sold. as for complete Pontiac HEMIs, only about 3 were know to have been sold and I have the only one known that has remained together over the years.
The guy I bought it from bought it new from M/T in '63. They had at the time some type of gasser class car and when they put it in the car, NHRA could not classify it because it was the only HEMI Pontiac out there.
After a short time of frustration trying to fit into a class, they gave up on the drag racing thing on pavement and built a sand rail for the HEMI to run in the sand drags.
Here is a picture of my Pontiac M/T HEMI in 1967. Blown, on fuel.

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org



<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
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With the research I have made. I have learned there were about 15-20 pairs of heads casted and about 4 or 5 intakes. that is what Fritz Voigt told me when I interviewed him a few years back. He was one of Mickeys friends, workers and head mechanics.

Another team that tried the M/T HEMI Pontiac but did not stay with it was the Team of Lew Arrington and Jim Leiberman. An issue on a '65 Hot Rod pictures the car with the Pontiac HEMI installed. This was in the '65 GTO funny car "Brutus". They switched many things on the car including the motor to a 392, the motor location, the stance of the car, etc, etc... as funny cars were rapidly evolving at that time as most are aware of.


Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org

<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
</DIR>

 

Here is the #2 M/T HEMI Pontiac used. This was Jack Chrismans own car, an AA/Fueler on nitro. As opposed to M/Ts dragmaster car ( white ) that ran on gasoline during the NHRA fuel ban.
This car was wrecked in a spectacular accident at Lions in the fall of '62.
The story is so crazy, I did not believe it at first even though the guy who told me is very credible.
Here is what I was told...
"Chrisman pushed down the fire up road and turned around to make a pass, early in the run, one of the rear mag wheels broke during a wheelstand...sent the car out of control and it ran into the tower on the left side of the track. Chrisman apparantely knocked out...motor running buzzing to the moon on nitro...One of the track personel who got to the car first pulled the plug wires out of the motor to get it to shut off......!

I know, I know, it a a pretty wild story and it's seems like one that was made up.
When I heard the story years back, I kinda' took it with a grain of salt so to speak. Even though the guy telling me who way it is very credible.

Anyway... what finally won me over and made me believe it was I heard the almost identical story from another person here in Az who also was there at Lions that day. these guy do not know each other.
I was finally a believer. then, a few years later, it I saw it documented in a drag racing book.
amazing story.
Here is his car before the wreck. I am not aware of pics of the wreck but, there must be some somewhere.
This was at the peak time of Pontiac development and racing with M/T. It was about to end in the few months.

The M/T Pontiac HEMI story..... to be continued.....

Steve Barcak
www.pontiacheaven.org

<DIR>Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgia drags, show and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az
</DIR>

 

Steve ... very cool thread! ... lot's of interesting info I did not know ... and (since you haven't posted it yet) here's a pic from High Performance PONTIAC magazine:


2007 Pontiac Heaven Drags & More IX
The incredibly rare Mickey Thompson Hemi Pontiac was on display. According to Steve
Barcak, he purchased it from the original owner, who bought it from Thompson in 1963.
The '62 389 custom M/T block has been bored and the crank stroked to displace 460
cubic inches. You can see the rare M/T magnesium Hemi blower intake, front cover and
valve covers with breathers. Note the vintage Hillborn fuel injection and Mooneyham
6-71 supercharger. The oil pan is for a marine application.

 

do you know what happened to the m/t casting patterns that were on ebay last year?

 

WOW!!!! Good stuff!!!

(this is why I need to add a couple more catagories to the Hemi Tech section!!)

 

Anyone going to put Pontiac HEMI heads on their wish list now? Probably won't be a cheap deal though.

KRE is selling NEW Pontiac Hemi heads now. They are billet and also have a billet block available.

http://www.tinindianperformance.com/Tin%20Indian%20Performance%20PRI%20show.htm

 

didnt some of the molds pop up on E-bay a while back?? is someone gunna do something with 'em??

 

Excellent thread, very informative!

 

This thread has been dormant for awhile. As of last night, I found 2 more important pics of the #2 Jack Chrisman rail with M/T HEMI Pontiac for power.
These are the only color pics I have ever seen. It shows it at the '62 US Nationals so it must have been set up to run on gas at least for this race.
Hosting-
Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix
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12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix
www.pontiacheaven.org
8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix
www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

 

Very Nice Steve! I would love to own a set of those someday. I would replace my 392 with a Pontiac any day!

Is it true that a Pontiac Block shared the same bore centerlines as an Early Hemi of the Mopar variety?

 

very cool

 

Sorry for not replying sooner, I just saw this.
The Pontiac bore spacing is 4.62" and I think the 392/354 is 4.59"
even the bolt pattern is close. I do see it somewhat practical to modify alum 392 heads ( like the Donovan 417, etc ) to fit a Pontiac block for those with enough energy and resources to do it. If I didn't have a decent stash of M/T HEMI Pontiac head, I would be exploring that attractive option.

Steve
Hosting-
Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix
www.pbofallfest.org
12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix
www.pontiacheaven.org
8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix
www.nostalgicshowandgo.org