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Poboyross's Model A Build: "Faux'dster"

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by poboyross, Aug 9, 2011.

  1. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    So I thought I had come up with this cool name, but as I well know, don't ever think you're the first to do *anything* around here, so I looked it up on the HAMB...I found one post back in 04 or 06 mentioning some guy's car by name, and called it the "fauxdster". SO...unless he gets ticked...for now,the "faux'dster" it is.

    I've gone through a good bit of wrestling with what I wanted it to look like, where I was drawing my inspiration, and what my pocketbook would allow. I decided that the Lieb roadster would be my rough guide, with a little Bishop/Tardel roadster mixed in. Over the past year, I've collected parts from all over the region. This being my first ground-up build, and second build *ever*, AND first experience with a Model A, I asked JohnnyBBad to help me out by getting the chassis together...my role is merely learning by osmosis at this point.

    After a particularly cruddy start with an f'd frame that I totally got ripped off on, JohnnyBBad rounded up a nice square frame and got to work. I'm pretty much still the parts runner at this point :rolleyes: lol

    Here's the chassis as it sits, still needs some partial boxing in the back, under the rear crossmember, buttoning up, and grinding. But it's pretty much what I had in my head:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It's currently going to be running a stock 305/Powerglide combo. A K member from SoCal was put in, too. I wanted to run radius rods in the rear, because I'm just not a fan of how ladder bars look. Because it's an open drive line (8" Ford rear from a late 60s Fairlane), those radius rods would never put up with the forces put on them, SO....JohnnyBBad fabbed up a torque arm. I found multiple threads here on the HAMB about this issue, and this seemed to be the most promising. The radius rods have a solid rod welded inside of them to add strength and rigidity.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The rear end originally had a Ford front spring hanging off the back, but now it will have an original A rear spring. Shocks will be hanging off the front of the axle. Johnny has some great sensibilities about hiding the more modern parts from view. Great builder, good guy.

    [​IMG]

    The front end is going to have F1 shock mounts when it's all done. Once the chassis is done, I'll likely be taking it over from there for body work, etc. I figured if I frak it up, it's not earth shattering....didn't want to play around with the chassis this time, though. Johnny has been more than understanding with all my questions :)

    So....the body. I picked it up from RPMRex last Thanksgiving....hella nice guy! He had it for awhile and never got around to doing anything with it. Someone started turning it into a coupester years ago and never finished. The rear portion of the body has had some semi-professional work done back in the day...the passenger half was welded onto the drivers and then had some pretty nice lead work done to it to match the body lines. Makes you wonder who's had this thing.

    Here's the body as I got it:

    [​IMG]

    The rear is pretty darn nice for stuff in this region, especially for the price! However, I ended up finding another cowl that didn't have the firewall/bracing sheetmetal damage or lack of sheetmetal in those areas that this one has.

    [​IMG]

    Since the subframe isn't whole, I scored one from a 2 door sedan from DonNJ...it'll donate the portion from the rear of the door jamb forward so that I'll have a good platform to put it all together.

    In the end, hopefully it'll have a little of this flavor:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. anteek
    Joined: Feb 27, 2009
    Posts: 394

    anteek
    Member

    Great start! How about more pics of the rear spring mount or the source? Very traditional looking.
     
  3. lorodz
    Joined: Jul 26, 2009
    Posts: 3,727

    lorodz
    Member

    good looking start.
     
  4. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 16,387

    Paul
    Editor

    if I am looking at this right
    the rear suspension has built in bind
    if there is enough slop in the joints it may last for a while
    but something will break in the log run
    or maybe sooner
     

  5. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Hey Paul, the radius rods and torque arm are on Heim joints....based on several threads here, one that I started, we settled on this setup. Check it out...tell me what you think. If you still think its a problem, please suggest a solution....no ladder bars! lol :)

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=589044&highlight=torque+arm+radius+rod

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=612921
     
  6. TexasSpeed
    Joined: Nov 2, 2009
    Posts: 4,631

    TexasSpeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Texas

    I like it! You're ahead of me at this point. I wish I had went ahead and built my frame before I started on my body but I'll just suck it up and keep going. :) I'm still not through and won't be for quite a while. Lots of stuff going on right now over here..

    What are your plans for the windshield? Folding top in the plans?


    iPhone - TJJ App
     
  7. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Thanks! I have to tell you, Johnny's sensibilities really came into play. He knew what I was going for and suggests changes here and there to tidy it up and make it better!

    Thanks! Your build was a kick in the pants to get moving on this. Your coupester is a poster child of how its done....hopefully I can see it sometime in person.

    Yeah, we're about to have a BUSY time over here coming up in September/October. My wife has her own business in addition to her 9-5, and we have 4-5 conventions to go to, not to mention start packing for the move back to CA at the end of October XP

    I'm not completely sure what I'm doing with the windshield...I've started gathering parts to play with several different options. I *definitely* want to put a top on it....again, inspiration taken from the Lieb roadster. Jimmy Shine did a hell of a job on it, and his design mods for the top bring a higher level of clean lines and design to the table.
     
  8. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,222

    Da Tinman
    Member

    You'll need to put hiems on both ends of the lower arms or its gonna bind, make it like a 3 link from a 60 imp.

    also the torque arm is going to need to be a lot beefier or it will bend.
     
  9. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Ok, small update. We looked at the setup again, and I think that, if anything, we're going to replace the Heim joint(s) on the torque arm with tie rod ends to give it some front-to-back flex action and alleviate the binding pressure that might result. Other than that, going to roll with it how it sits, keep an eye on the castings on the backs of those bones.
     
  10. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    What do you guys think about using this windshield?

    [​IMG]

    I think it's off an old Dodge? Looks like it would have to be widened, no? Gotta follow them thar curves!
     
  11. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    So today I went out and buffed the flash rust from the back of the body and hit it with some rattle can rust stop. I figure this ought to protect it till I can get it media blasted out in CA.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,454

    oj
    Member

    That upper link - what i think you call a 'torque arm' serves no purpose. Unbolt it and hang it on the wall for another use.
    Besides, it'll bind up as others have said.
    The rear is bolted firm at teh radius rods onto the axle tube ends - it cannot rotate unless those rods bend (possible, not likely with those tires etc) and the rear is situated with the spring. You have the rear nearly as Henry designed it except the attachment point of the rod ends. And you have them proper, angled inward and close to each other so the work together. What is screwing the pooch is that upper bar - Henry didn't think he needed it so what makes you think you need it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  13. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    It controls the natural rotation, up or down, of the pumpkin while driving. It helps to alleviate stress on the castings of the bones.

    Sorry for being a smart ass....and thanks, seriously, for throwing down some geometric science! :)

    The concern lies in Henry not putting a V8 in these cars using those bones. I know that folks dis on the 305 like a dog, but it's got some low end torque, enough that others on here have cracked the castings on the bones pretty often. I *wish* I could have located some 35/36 radius rod ends, as they would have been tough as nails, at least doubly more than these. I agree with you that the bones will prevent the pumpkin from rotating, but the stress will still be there, movement or no. This arm's job is supposed to take the bulk of that pressure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  14. swissmike
    Joined: Oct 22, 2003
    Posts: 1,297

    swissmike
    Member

    The torque arm attachment point in the front needs to move to the same axis as the two radius rods the it will serve it's purpose of counteracting the rotation of the rear axle and still articulate properly.
     
  15. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Do you mean the same lateral point, as in moving the bracket down for the torque arm?
     
  16. swissmike
    Joined: Oct 22, 2003
    Posts: 1,297

    swissmike
    Member

    Yes. Basically think like you would use one long bolt to hinge both radius rods and the torque arm. That's the only way you won't have bind.
     
  17. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Ok, so lets say it's moved down to be in line with the bones. The torque arm's pivot point at the crossmember is now perpendicular to the drive shaft (same as it is now, just lower). The bones' rotational axis are 45 degrees off of that, on each side. Does that matter? I know that on the original Fords, it had that little tab at the end that rotated along the same axis as the torque arm is currently (but moved down, of course). Make sense?
     
  18. swissmike
    Joined: Oct 22, 2003
    Posts: 1,297

    swissmike
    Member

    You will be fine when using Heim joints. Just position the torque arm link at the same lateral position as the other two. After you tack the bracket, articulate the rear end without spring attached. It should move freely.
     
  19. Fordguy321
    Joined: Oct 16, 2009
    Posts: 421

    Fordguy321
    Member
    from Arizona

    great start i wana watch this come togtehr
     
  20. modelacitizen
    Joined: Jun 24, 2006
    Posts: 878

    modelacitizen
    Member

    Hey Adam, I agree with this. It should be pretty easy to resolve. But I think If you make that minor change, you'll be good to go. It's looking good man. Can't wait to see the body on it.
     
  21. lorodz
    Joined: Jul 26, 2009
    Posts: 3,727

    lorodz
    Member

    listen to me keep the torque arm i thought i didnt need it until i let out the clutch and the rear twisted ..your doing it correctly it looks good and will work..
     
  22. goetzcr
    Joined: Jul 21, 2010
    Posts: 123

    goetzcr
    Member

    I just found your build. Sweet. I just got the 29 roadster that my dad drove when he was in high school. I'm going with a 364 nailhead. Your inspirations are the same as mine-Lieb and Bishop/Tardel. Those are two of my favorite roadsters. I also want to bring in some late 50's elements, so maybe my traditional sensabilities aren't SO pure:rolleyes:. Unfortunately my build will have to wait until after I move this fall. It's gonna be a SLOW one.

    You do need a torque arm (or ladder bars:p). It controls the rear end's tendency to roll forward and backward by countering the torque generated by braking and acceleration. I cant speak to the adequacy of your bar's thickness. As for why Henry didn't need one: it's the same reason he didn't need to box the frame, he was running 24 HP and 120 ft-lbs. I'm guessing your 305 will make significantly more:D.

    I'll be following your build for sure!
     
  23. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    If you don't do this, you will be in for a BIG surprise in hardly any miles at all.
     
  24. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    The reason Henry didn't need a torque arm was because he used a TORQUE TUBE! Much stronger than any torque arm made by hot rodders. Jeez.
     
  25. Rpmrex
    Joined: Nov 19, 2007
    Posts: 664

    Rpmrex
    Member
    from Indiana

    Looking great Ross! I am also looking forward to seing this on the road.
    Good job so far!!!!!!!!!!
     
  26. goetzcr
    Joined: Jul 21, 2010
    Posts: 123

    goetzcr
    Member

    Thanks for the education. I was under the impression it was to counter the torque of the driveline.
     
  27. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    A torque tube does "counter" the torque of the driveline. Not the longitudinal rotational torque of the driveshaft, but the torque of the rear axles rotating laterally. The same thing hot rodders are trying to do with these spindly and binding arms. But Henry had it all figured out with ZERO bind and LOTS of strength.
     
  28. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    UPDATE:

    Johnny is almost done with his part of it....and seeing he's the metal master, I asked him if he could splice in the front portion of the sedan subframe into the coupe rear. Based on what others had said, this was supposed to be a straight cut and paste job using from the rear of the door jambs forward...but NOT SO!!! Hence why I asked Johnny to take a look at it and do it. I know by now not to believe all you hear ;) He's just about done with his part on this build, then it'll be up to me to not F up the rest of the body and finishing work. For now the extra cowl is mounted on the body, but will be replaced with my cherry one once I get out to CA at the end of October. This one will be up for sale if anyone wants dibs on it...PM me if you want it....at any rate, here's where it's at:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    He's finishing up the F1 mount bending and the subframe today, I'll have it back at my place later this week. I'll break it back down to do take off the surface rust and hit it with some Eastwood chassis black, get it ready to take out to Cali. Obviously the front end will be several inches lower once the motor is back in there :)

    I was debating between a 28/29 grill shell and a 30/31. I do like the height of the 30/31...but I'm going to go for the 28/29...I believe in its power to look cool because of the Lieb roadster, so I'm going to try and rock it on this one. Later on down the line, I'd like to put a set of side skirts (30/31 most likely due to the scallop looking closer to the one on the 32 frames) and see what I think. I've got an idea on extending it towards the back of the frame to have a smoother blend back into the body as opposed to the straight chop that they have, stock.
     
  29. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Bump for the evening crowd.
     
  30. TexasSpeed
    Joined: Nov 2, 2009
    Posts: 4,631

    TexasSpeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Texas

    Looking good, man. I've also been thinking about what A shell to use on mine as well.. Still up in the air about that. I noticed that you decided to run a perch off the rear crossmember for the spring. What made you decide to do that as opposed to using the crossmember itself?

    Quick way to relocate the spring to the rear of the axle?


    iPhone - TJJ App
     

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