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Hot Rods Pics of my model A suicide front end

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ralphiejantz, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. ralphiejantz
    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Posts:
    46
    Location:
    seaford, NY

    ralphiejantz Member

    Just finished up doing the spring mounts on the suicide front end for the hot rod

    just looking for some opinions on how the mounts on the wishbones came out
    I basically just cut up some steel plate shaped it and tig welded to the wishbones, and added some gussets to the top and to the bottom

    also Im leaning towards keeping the connecting link for the steering out in front of the axle are there any disadvantages to this ?

    any input is appreciated
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
  2. trad27
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
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    922
    Location:
    Bakersfield

    trad27 Member

    Tie rod in front is a very bad idea. Not only bad steering ackerman but makes reverse ackerman.
  3. 29AV8
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2009
    Posts:
    192
    Location:
    Anderson In.

    29AV8 Member

    Well would ya look at that FORD in a FORD. way to go man. the only way imo.
    oh yea the front looks pretty good too. Buddy of mine did his like that he didnt really like the feel.
  4. Muttley
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
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    Fresno, Cal.

    Muttley Member

    It's not too late to put it back the way it's supposed to be.
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. 510madmav
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    Dec 29, 2009
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    Location:
    San Lorenzo, CA

    510madmav Member

    i agree, make it right..
  6. tubman
    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
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    1,373
    Location:
    Breezy Point, MN

    tubman Member

    Not too enamored with the name on the door and the trim on the grille.:mad:
  7. flatheadpete
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
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    7,807
    Location:
    Burton, MI Out of Flint!

    flatheadpete Member

    Yep. The front end is gonna 'plow' when you steer. I bent my steering arms out towards the wheels as far as they would go. It worked better but still not perfect.
  8. Francisco Plumbero
    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
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    il.

    Francisco Plumbero Member

    If I read that correctly, every time you flex the springs it is going to want to twist on the bones. I'm not so sure I would be in favor of that. Nice ride though.
  9. SLAMIT
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
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    Location:
    Back In Santa Cruz

    SLAMIT Member

    It's ratastic for sure.

    Not a huge fan of suicide front ends but hey it's your car homie do what you like!!!!!!!
  10. ralphiejantz
    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
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    46
    Location:
    seaford, NY

    ralphiejantz Member

    Yeah thats not staying there
    the name was on there when I bought the body
    and the grille piece is just hanging with zip ties
    Im not sure if Im gonna paint the car flat green, flat black, or flat red yet but the lettering will not be there when its painted
    and the skull and wrenches normally hang on my garage wall and will be removed when the car is finished
  11. RAY With
    Joined:
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    Location:
    Montgomery ,Texas

    RAY With Member

    I dont think you will like the handeling once you finish it and go for the test ride. To each his own though.
  12. ralphiejantz
    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
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    Location:
    seaford, NY

    ralphiejantz Member

    are you referring to the steering ? or the spring mounts ?

    For the steering I personally dont mind if it goes behind the wheel or in front of the wheel,

    Im just looking for any disadvantages to it going in the front because right now it fits this way

    if I move it to the back I have to get dropped steering arms to clear the wishbones and Im on a very tight budget with this car (but if its going to cause an issue with the steering being messed up I will buy the drop arms to move the steering back behind the axle)

    as for the suicide style spring behind the front axle
    that is how its staying I like the look of a little longer wheelbase on a coupe body and I like the way it looks with the spring behind the axle
    and I want to stay with the stock wishbone look
  13. Muttley
    Joined:
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    Muttley Member

    All of it, I'm not into the suicide frontend thing.........it makes the car look like a cartoon. Henry got the wheelbase correct straight from the factory.
  14. TomCat 1
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
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    354
    Location:
    Central Illinois

    TomCat 1 Member

    If it had a small block Chevy in it and said mouse nest on the door would it be O.K. ? Sorry just playin Maytag.............build it the way U want as long as its safe!
  15. RustyNCA
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
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    Location:
    Redding, CA

    RustyNCA Member

    Not sure that it matters, but mine is in front and it drives fine for me.

    [​IMG]

    My friend's 30 has a front end pretty similar to yours, he has been running it for at least two, maybe three years. His ride does get a bad wobble sometimes after hitting a hard bump. I don't know if that is due to the mount of the spring that way, he added some friction shocks on it and that seemed to help him out(he still gets it, but doesn't seem to be as often). Sorry I don't have a photo after he added the shocks.

    [​IMG]
  16. Houston Rodder
    Joined:
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    The Great State of Texas

    Houston Rodder Member

    Nice welds. I like your car!
  17. Master of None
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    Rockwellcity,Ia

    Master of None
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The only problem I've had with the suicide front end on my truck is when I pull into a sandy parking lot. If I have the steering wheel turned tight and and catch a patch of sand it tends to push the front wheels a bit. But it's only then I'm going slow and trying to make a tighter turn that I should.
  18. flamedabone
    Joined:
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    3,353
    Location:
    Drinkin' beer and building hot rods in S. Carolina

    flamedabone
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't want to jump on the negative bandwagon, but the leaf spring mounted to the wishbone is a no-no. The bones are not meant to be stressed in that plane, or carry the weight of the front end at the hollow part of teh tube.

    The weight of the whole car loaded on that tiny spring mount on the thin tube of the wishbone is a failure waiting to happen. Not to mention, the wishbone is trying to bear a load in a long horizontal plane and has a hot (hard) weld in a short vertical plane.

    Stress fractures always form 90 degrees to the load and that leaf spring bracket is making it WAY worse. The first cracks will form on the underside of that bracket where you won't see them, then the whole bracket will break off the wishbone and your front end will hit the pavement. Not good..

    Good move asking for advise, there are lots of experienced guys hanging around here.

    Good luck,-Abone.
  19. crotex
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
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    Location:
    cuero, tx

    crotex BANNED

    I personally like the suicide front ends as much as the under frame way. I am going with a suicide front end on my T coupe I am building right now. I have seen people run their spring mounts on the bones many of times and worked fine. I have also seen many people run that link in front of the axle as well and still work fine. I actually did both of those things on a T pickup I built and it worked fine. I didn't drive it much I only built it for the shop I was working for but I never heard anything wrong about it.

    By the way, Is it just me or do the top corners of your doors look a little to pointed in the 90 degree way? Also the quarter windows and the rear windows look a little off too. Is that body pieced together from more than one?
  20. Tman
    Joined:
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    Location:
    Beautifull Black Hills of South Dakota

    Tman Member

    Please do a search and study "ackerman"
  21. 33_chevy
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2008
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    371
    Location:
    TX

    33_chevy Member

    What is the wheel base,looks pretty long,i'm not a great fan of this kind of front ends but everyone like different things.Keep up the good work.
  22. ralphiejantz
    Joined:
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    Location:
    seaford, NY

    ralphiejantz Member

    not sure I think its from a late 30's plymouth maybe ?
    I got it at a local swap a few years ago for 50 cents and just threw it in the parts stash
    once I started building the car I pulled it out to see how it would look and it gets the job done just fine
  23. -Brent-
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
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    Location:
    Salt Lake City

    -Brent- Member

    What's the deal with your doors? Did you trim off the overlap? Also, is it possible at this point of your build to get the rear wheels centered in the wheel well? It may help the proportions some.
  24. ralphiejantz
    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
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    46
    Location:
    seaford, NY

    ralphiejantz Member

    The body is not all from the same car
    basically the firewall and part of the roof were salvaged
    and the rest was made up at home out of sheetmetal so it definitely does not look 100% as far as door lines, window lines, body lines etc.
    this was put together on a super tight budget with a left over drivetrain and bunches of parts from previous projects that didnt get used

    the rear still has to be adjusted and moved slightly
    as soon as I finish up the front end and the steering Im moving towards the back of the car then finishing up the wiring and gonna start to get some miles on it
    I just got it running last week so Im getting close
    hoping to have it done before the winter sets in here in the northeast
  25. tiredford
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
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    Location:
    Grain Valley Mo.

    tiredford Member

    I've seen the bones break at the axle. Thats with the spring over the axle where it's suspost to be. IE no weight on the bones.
  26. CoolHand
    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
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    1,883
    Location:
    Missouri. . . .Near the Middle

    CoolHand Alliance Vendor

    The Ackerman can be fixed, it's just simple geometry.

    The spring mounts I'm less impressed with. They're good looking welds, and the fab looks sound, but the design is lacking here.

    The bones will carry the load, I've seen more than a dozen spring to wishbone front ends on this forum alone, and they've done fine.

    The part that isn't fine is the welding the mount to one side of the bone rigid like and then just hanging the shackles off it.

    The springs make the shackle work in a planar arc, while the single mount at the rear of each bone makes them work in another planar arc, which intersects the spring's arc at ~90 degs. This misalignment of these two arcs will cause the shackle mounts and the bone to want to move in conflicting directions, leading to twisting loads on the bone itself, the shackle mounts, the shackles, the spring, and the spring mount.

    A better solution would be to introduce a pivot into the side of the bone via a thru hole type mount. The spring force would still be twisting the bone axially, but that change would unbind pretty much everything else.

    If you go that route, make sure you sleeve the hole that you drill though the bone for the mount, don't just drill the hole and run bolt through it. Make up a sleeve that fits the bolt very well and then weld it into the bone from both sides.

    If you had a wider spring, you could hang it under the wishbone such that the upper shackle mount was directly under the centerline of the bone. THAT would remove the twisting moment from the equation ('cause any force that acts through the center of rotation yields zero moment), and if you mounted it via a single through bolt from the side, you'd also leave the rest of the works free to pivot too. Kind of like how a universal joint works, actually.

    Takes up more room vertically though, 'cause the whole shackle and the spring eye has to hang under the wishbone.

    Also, while you're building, move the chassis side of the spring mount forward so that you can hang the springs as close to the axle as you can. That will help the wishbone live by reducing the leverage it is fighting. It will also make the spring feel stiffer to the passengers.
  27. Blue One
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
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    Location:
    Alberta

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think the front axle is way to far ahead of the spring. I cringe when I see front ends built that way.

    The axle in front of the spring can work well if it's done properly. I am doing my 26 RPU like the guys at Shadow Rods have done with theirs.

    They mount the spring to the side of the bones with a 3/4" through bolt as I am doing also.

    Here are some pictures of how they did theirs, if you look at my build thread you will see I did something very similar.

    Attached Files:

  28. Blue One
    Joined:
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    Alberta

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Another shot of the complete effect of the front suspension.

    Attached Files:

  29. patrick2965
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Posts:
    1,676
    Location:
    North Little Rock Arkansas

    patrick2965 Member

    I'll say a study of how Ford torque rod and wishbone parts have a tendency to break under loads not having been designed in by Ford would be well spent time. Then a good look at the subject, disassembly, sparks, $$, quality construction.
    Best of luck and studying. Frank Mack has one eye open, he hasn't started spinnin' yet with YOUR stuff. He was damn sure groanin' last night.
  30. Italianrich
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Posts:
    52
    Location:
    St Louis, Mo

    Italianrich Member

    the long wheelbase looks bitchin....and a ford in a damn ford!!! finally someone else that thinks its the way it should be. you want to bolt on crap from speedway, go small block chevy with th350-how f-ing original.
    as for the steering issue, run a small panhard bar, hide it behind the axle, it will help a ton. I run without shocks too, and the panhard was a huge help in getting it down the road straight.
    I think it looks pretty damn good like it is, would look good in drab green too...

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