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History Perspective

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Ryan, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. Jim Hassad
    Joined: Aug 9, 2015
    Posts: 59

    Jim Hassad
    Member

    I'm sure that the wings were removed for transporting the car. If you look at the bare frame picture, you will see two stubby tubes that most likely were receivers for "spars" in the wings. They were planning on having plenty of downforce! It seems suicidal now, but just think, this is a potential 400 mph car with no rollbar or any protection whatsoever!! And they ran on a road lined with trees and the occasional overpass.
     
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  2. revkev6
    Joined: Jun 13, 2006
    Posts: 3,352

    revkev6
    Member
    from ma

    given that the car had a coefficient of drag of .18 (which means it's equal to the drag of a flat plat 5"x5") there is no way those wings were moved. the resulting change in the airflow around the wing root would destroy the aerodynamics. wing roots and tips are the most critical to an efficient wing design. they are most likely in seperate peices so they can be removed for transport. the mount for the wing internal structure has two tubes that would receive corresponding tubes from this winglet.
     
  3. I think he's laughing at two dozen 'lightening' holes on a car that weighs 6,000 lbs. Kind of like, what's the point?
     
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  4. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Rev this an interesting observation with the wing profile. The air going over an aircraft wing creates lift and with this shape in reverse to an aircraft positioning the force would be downward.

    They by this time were well aware of this and had wind tunnels to test I would assume for what would be the sweet spot for positioning of all aerodynamics.

    This land speed stuff makes all these profiles and attachments way more critical.

    As eluded many times in high speed trials and competition those behind the wheel were of strong will indeed.
     
  5. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    It's funny, for I never imagined the frame/inner structure to look the way it does. My first thought was there was some super light Auto Union/Porsche inspired Indy car type of thing going on under that beautiful body. The picture with the body removed looks more like a hybrid between a car and a locomotive. The scale was lost on me until the body came off. It wasn't until then did I realize what a beast this car really is.

    Again, I skimmed the information and didn't read it to in-depth, but how many speeds was that transaxle set-up?
     
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  6. revkev6
    Joined: Jun 13, 2006
    Posts: 3,352

    revkev6
    Member
    from ma

    there's a reason Heinkel did the body on this car.... He was working on building a record winning fighter to replace the 109 that used the same engine. in 1939 his fighter design went 463 mph. which was about 100mph faster than anything we had at the time. Heinkel knew aerodynamics and could have played a larger roll in the war but always felt he was unliked by the Germain air ministry. regardless of the performance they ministry decided to stick with the ME109 and religate Heinkel to bombers only.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7.  
  8. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm pretty sure they were fixed in a favorable position for the speed at which they felt they were going to achieve. It would have created downward pressure and it would have had to be very calculated (if it is truly fixed) as to much would slow it down and to little would create an unstable situation.

    But hey ya never know what was lurking in the sleek cruiser surfaces.

    ai·ler·on
    ˈāləˌrän/
    noun
    plural noun: ailerons
    1. a hinged surface in the trailing edge of an airplane wing, used to control lateral balance.
    [​IMG]


    ca·nard
    kəˈnär(d)/
    noun
    plural noun: canards
    1. 2.
      a small winglike projection attached to an aircraft forward of the main wing to provide extra stability or control, sometimes replacing the tail.
    2. A canard foreplane may be used for various reasons such as lift, (in)stability, trim, flight control, or to modify airflow over the main wing. Design analysis has been divided into two main classes, for the lifting-canard and the control-canard.
    It is no surprise that these beasts share so many features associated with aircraft and require a huge understanding of aerodynamics not unlike the slower stuff which is still affected by all the forces dealt with.. Wild stuff for sure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  9. LBCD
    Joined: Oct 28, 2009
    Posts: 1,059

    LBCD
    Member

    Click on the link below. Just a small home movie from a visitor at the Mercedes museum...great thread! I've owned a bunch of German cars over the years and AMG is by far a great hand built motor. I was once told by a hard core Ford man..."yea I compare your car to a beautiful woman...she is German with an ice cold personality...I just smiled and laughed.



    Sent from my SCH-I535 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  10. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 21,633

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Staff Member

    I think some of y'all are way "stupider" than me... and most are WAYYY smarter.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  11. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    :eek: Its not April yet is it?
     
  12. Road Runner
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 1,256

    Road Runner
    Member

    I like reading an article about a Hot Rod Manhattan Project of the 1940s.
    Breaking land speed record while changing life on earth forever.
    English language will do just fine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  13. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Thanks for that insight and you're right. The larger/longer portion of the winglet is the bottom which reverses the lift to be more of a downward thrust.

    I'm still not seeing those pipes that were mentioned or the attachment mechanism. It sure looks like they'd come off for transportation, but I'm not seeing how they secured them to the car. The must have somehow or they'd come flying off at speed.

    Ryan: At first I praised you for this post, but now I'm pissed at you. This car is like a friggin' rabbit hole and I've wasted two days at work doing research on other German WWII-era speed related pursuits. Damn it! I need to stop, but I just can't look away. This thread is like meth....
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  14. KustomKreeps
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 324

    KustomKreeps
    Member

    putting side the stupid pro USA crap.

    I ask my self what would i rather have in my garage? T80 or any car mentioned here and the answer for me comes quickly as T80.
     
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  15. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The 2 holes look like tubes that the wing was likely attached by (slide in and pinned perhaps). It would have to be pretty darn strong and if tubes or bars (spars) were throughout the wing it would likely be up to the task. The video @lbcd posted shows a great shot from a low angle and you can see the profile of the wing is definitely reverse of an aircraft


    mercedes-benz-t80-the-record-car-that-never-wasHighlight.jpg


    The theory
    To understand why this works one first has to have a grasp of the basic principles of lift and down force. The illustration below shows a simple downforce generating wing profile.

    [​IMG]

    The air passing under the wing has further to travel than the air passing over the top surface. This causes the air under the wing to accelerate, resulting in a drop in air pressure, this creates a difference in pressure between the upper and lower surfaces. This difference essentially means the wing is pushed down by the higher pressure above, generating what is known as downforce.

    http://www.racecar-engineering.com/technology-explained/diffusers-engineering-basics-aerodynamics/

    Credit to Artists, Owners, Photographers
    & Original Posters

     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  16. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    OK, yes. I see it. The pipes were in the wing and slid on to the support and pinned from inside. Genius.

    This statement is in no way in support of Hitler or the Nazis, but you can't deny that when they set their minds to something they went all out. There was little gray area in their logic. All or nothing. Thankfully, us hillbillies gave him nothing. Thank the Lord!
     
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  17. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Word. Thanks for that. Make perfect sense and that one picture does show the upside down wing perfectly. Those Krauts were some pretty smart dudes.
     
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  18. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think you should reserve judgement on that as so many incredible Land Speed Vehicles shared many accolades bearing the flags of many nations and rivaled each other for records and engineering genius to this day.
     
  19. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The German fellows...They weren't you know Hitler. This technology is not the war machine its what we love to enjoy. These people were caught in crap most of us have never experienced and hopefully never will.

    Technology is wild stuff and genious is a worldly thing all nations enjoy. We are also fortunate to have access to this stuff to share and discuss. Right down to the wooden blocks...:D hole ee makinaw...
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  20. y'sguy
    Joined: Feb 25, 2008
    Posts: 694

    y'sguy
    Member
    from Tulsa, OK

    I am just thankful that no has asked how low it could be lowered. Would look good in flat black though :)
     
  21. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Well, let's put it this way. Porsche lead the team. Genius by birth, Nazi by choice. He was a native Czech and agreed to join Hitler's guest to create a vehicle for mass transportation. Denounced his Czech citizenship approx 4 years before Germany invaded.

    You don't get that deep in the Nazi government without fitting in, if you know what I mean.
     
  22. Agreed. It was meant to be more of a generalized statement going along with wondering what would have been possible post-war if there was the same importance put on breaking records with an unlimited budget as was in the latter 1940s.
     
  23. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I understand what you are saying. I will not venture into this its way deeper than I know as in the history of those events are complex. It wasn't my best subject either. Just love the good in mankind and most are good thankfully. The Hamb is worldwide and its great to see the wider picture with regards to speed and custom related evolution.
     
  24. Well Ryan, you broke all the rules this time. :eek::rolleyes:

    But you saved it with good ole "Yankee Enginuity"... ;)

    In many ways, I think American hot rodding was just a second example of hillbillies out thinking Nazis.
     
  25. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Agree 100%. I'm really trying to be apolitical here. Regardless of who funded it, the T80 is an amazing machine and it's merits deserved the fine discourse going on here.
     
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  26. TERPU
    Joined: Jan 2, 2004
    Posts: 2,372

    TERPU
    Member

    Yep right as rain flat on top curvy on the bottom will make downforce. I stand corrected. It's creating sink not lift, cool learned something today. PS - we're still better - Tongue out emogee!
     
  27. Jim Hassad
    Joined: Aug 9, 2015
    Posts: 59

    Jim Hassad
    Member

    Ok, we can't let this thread die without commenting on the SPOKE WHEELS! With all of the beautiful engineering in the drivetrain, why weren't solid/fabricated aluminum wheels used on a 400mph car? I believe the Brits used them right after WW2 on their cars. I realize that the Germans had a problem with a good bauxite supply for creating aluminum so they must have steered all effort onto the war. Don Vesco's 300 mph motorcycle efforts in 1972 were stymied with spoke vibrations chewing through the inner tubes creating 290 mph blowouts. That is when he asked my father, Ira Hassad, to create the world's first cast aluminum motorcycle wheel to end this problem.
     
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  28. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Great point. A blow out on a cycle at just shy of 3 bills? Talk about a need to change your shorts afterwards. I couldnt even imagine.
     
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  29. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    OK, so I love a traditional American home-made Hot Rod as much as the next Hamber, but there's a special place in my heart for one of these things:
     
  30. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 4,479

    banjorear
    Member

    Holy crap that's awesome. Talk about a tach! Can't miss the revs on that thing. It's so big, I think Flavor Flav would wear that around his neck! Love the aircraft gauges on it as well.

    That thing just screams German engineering. Clean, purposeful and well crafted. That is a serious racer for sure.
     
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