Without laying eyes on it physically, it is 99.9% likely that it is an aftermarket head manufactured for sale by merchandisers like Sears Roebuck, Western Auto, Montgomery Wards and companies like that back in the late 30s and early 40s. What does the combustion chamber shape look like?
Combustion chamber looks pretty much stock but I will look at it some more this weekend. The length and width of the head is slightly smaller also than the block itself
Brent, you're right, i'm not listening. I'm sorry, I got lost in the whole tire changing analogy. I'd actually prefer if the person on the side of the road would just get out of my way and let me change the tire for them and then be on my way
Anyone ever see a back to back side mount Mag set up. I had one on an Alexander when I was a kid. It was really trick, one mag was offset a little with some gearing in between. Ran off a side drive and fed duel plugs. The man I got the motor from said the rear one fired later than the front. I never had it apart only changed plugs. I sold the whole car, been kicking myself eversence. Dumb kids.--TV
I bought one of those recently with the "Made in USA" and a casting date of 6-11-40 across the top. The combustion chamber looks like a stock A. There is no Ford script on it unlike some of the post-1931 replacement heads made by Ford; I assume it is aftermarket like Brent says.
Thanks to you and Brett for the info. Personally I am staggered at the interest in these four bangers so much so that I would like to start a four banger register for ALL Model T, A, B or C owners irrespective of modifications or what have you. Please email all contact details to me at [email protected] Its early days yet but it could lead to a dedicated website of sorts. Best regards, Greg Stokes P.O.Box 28 Pukekohe Auckland 1730 New Zealand [email protected]
I have heard of this setup and they may have been made by a fellow in the delta valley east of San Fran years ago. Jerry McCleod ( a very old gentleman, prolly in his 80's) told us his brother used to make those back when. I have one single Wico Magneto that was used in this twin magneto drive setup. I am running a single Magneto on my banger that was made for a model A..XV1509 is the serial number. The mag for the dual drive has a gear on the bottom just sticking out below a flange for mounting to the "dual mag" base that some fellow made. The mags weren't special made for the dual mag setup, they were from a stationery engine like those used on farms. I would love to find one of those twin mag bases just to look at if nothing else.
I never want to go back to running a dizzy after running my Scintilla Vertex. These are a straight swap for the A/B. I'm not sure where they came from but it was either from the G28T engines or they come from the industrial engines, not only the A/B but also the small Ford engines, which came from the Anglia. I've picked up another one fairly easily so I'm assuming they are quite common, well at least over here. Because I have the Lion Head which has the option of a second set of plugs, I'm thinking of running the second mag off a side drive as well as keeping the first mag in the stock postion! Doing it this way seems too easy though. I can't believe nobody hasn't done this before. Can anybody prove me wrong?
I could probably prove you wrong - just not about that! So - give you a quid for that old 14.9hp head then, now you're not using it?! On that note, has anyone done any testing between the 14.9 head and an aftermarket one, or is it another British curiosity device? And is it only the Lion head that offers two plug positions?
I'd like to know how much extra power you'll get from twin plugs. Will the plugs spark together or at a different time?
Dan Price does a stock looking aluminium head with twin plugs. They are side by side over the valves. I believe the twin plugs allows you to run less advance which usualy means that the engine is more efficient, equaling more power, right? Thats the good thing about having two seperate magneto's is that you can time them up indivialy, instead of having say a dual spark dizzy (I don't think a dual spark mag exists) thats fires two plugs at the exact same time because that might not be the best situation due to the two flame fronts moving across the chamber?
I know that mine fired one behind the other, the plugs always read differently,I had a timing procedure that came with the engine. I always kept it under my rubber mat. Boy I miss that car.--TV
Dan's head is actually for the Pietenpol "crowd" that needs a back-up ignition to keep them from falling out of the sky. Early vehicles (engines) that were 'out of square' or had no combustion chamber (T-head design, F-head, etc.) sometimes utilized dual ignition for a couple of reasons. To understand this theory you must know what was not known until Ricardo developed a swirling effect combustion chamber. Prior to that, with a low CR (like 4:1) and slow engine speeds, it was hard to keep fuel and air into suspension so they used two plugs per cylinder to "light" everything at once. The other reason for dual plugs was cooling. Believe it or not, many dual-plug engines will overheat if you cancel one bank of plugs. It is kind of like running a Model A/T engine with the spark lever retarded. One thing to also consider is that most magnetos of the time did not have centrifugal advance. Therefore if you dialed enough advance into it so it would run at higher RPMs (1500+/-) then they would kick the "snot" out of you when you were hand-cranking it. Since I mentioned Model T's, I don't know if you have ever thought about it but the Model T and some early cars like it were the first to have what we now know as MSD "boxes". A Model T engine utilized a "coil pack" for each cylinder and it worked great. Ninety years later, the auto manufacturers "re-invented" the wheel they thought. I am building a new bobtail sprint car to race with AARA that is flathead powered. What I have built is an electronic ignition set-up that leaves some scratching their heads although it is not that "trick" by design. I bought a 26-27 Model T coil box that mounts on top of an engine and put a True-Fire Ignition Coil Pack inside and made an adapter to mount the timer laying where the regular A/B distributer locates. Real simple set-up that allows me to run .050" plug gap at 3K RPMs --and not worry about mis-firing from too fat of a fuel load. Thus my point is that you really do not need dual ignition unless you cannot burn the fuel-load that is in the cylinders. Burning all of the fuel-load cleanly is the key to making (more) power. I also have a couple of the Scintilla/Vertex mags likel Clark has but my problem is keeping them "in the hole" driving in rough conditions like I do. These units (unlike the WICO X units) can have centrifugal advance. IMO, the best street set-up going for the price is to use a Model B distributer witha Pertronic Ignitor unit inside. Dead on timing, and with a 301 coil, it will throw 40K volts across a .045" plug gap. Add the modern retrofit cap & wires and you have an affordable set-up. If you want a little more "gold chainer effect", then do like I did and take their new electronic aluminum distributer and polish it. Better set-up than the Mallory IMO.
This is great reading, I was looking to buy a Lion Head, and get it shipped over, to OZ, I may still, this has just given me some food for thought, I don't have the $'s to spend mountains, plus I'm about 2500 miles from my banger... I've emailed you foreverfour. Outback
I've replied.... Aside from the Lion Head, what is another option regarding a replacement flathead for the A banger?? What's the Brumfield like? What's the cost? Outback
A couple companies repop the Winfield. I think this was discussed here already, but it is a good head. Dan price remakes the Thomas head. There might be more i can't remember right now, as far as flatheads go.
You can get a Winfield from Speciality in Rosemead, I run a 6.4-1 Winnie and it's a great head. A Brumfield will need to come from Larry Brumfield himself I think. He can be found on Ahooga quite often.
I'll follow these up with a google search, the info is muchly appreciated! My prob is that I live in the middle of nowhere, and in Australia, where 4 banger info is hard to come across, only relying on the net and a few die hards, at our recent nats my banger was the only one there (that I know of) in 1500 cars, so getting good info is an ordeal. there's a whole lot of good info here, but I can't just go round to see these shops or even ring easily. And when just surfing the net you really don't know what you are reading. Thanks again. Outback
Have a custom head made by Norm Frick ...the guy that actually makes the Ardun OHV for the Model A/B and some others (OHV and flathead too). About 3-5 years ago he was getting $100.00 per "hole". In other words, a flathead 4 was $400.00, a 6 cylinder was $600.00 and so forth. You told him what CR and combustion chamber shape you wanted and he whittled you out a custom head out of two aluminum billets. He had done several heads that I was associated with and I liked him, ...and his heads alot. I even sold him a SOHC McDowell head. I mentioned his name to Charlie at Cincinatti once and suggested he run an article in SOSS --and Charlie said he felt like the guy was a butcher who just hogged out heads. Needless to say that did not set with me well then. I only saw one little blurb in 'Secrets' while I was a subscriber about Norm so I always figured Charlie viewed Norms heads as a threat to his R2P and his then upcoming Lyin' head. Anywho, Norm is an option. I don't really know how to contact him now since his website (www.flatheadsforever.net) went down. I sure the guys at H&H know how to get ahold of him.
FLAME YOU??? Heck no. Only "hind-ends" and jerks derserve to get flamed! H&H is Max Herman: www.handhantique.com ...and their banger site: www.4bangersforever.com/
I miss that website, he had some amazing stuff. Does he still do the swapmeets? I remember you always used to get a picture of his stall in the swapmeet coverage in the magazines. I've got a issue of Secrets with a 2 page feature on Norm Frick and is products. He gets a glowing report and not a bad word is said. I think it has his phone number and address if you want it? Did you get that PM Brent?
Boy, this has been a fun read. If someone has it, do you think the value of the # 1 lion speed head is going up or down?
New to this whole game, where can i get a Brumfield Head, and what else do i need to run it, do i have to shave down anything thanks a lot
He hangs out on Ahooga, now, and I think that is best place to track him down. He sort of alternates between tech info and political rants, so no longer supported on Ryan boards.
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