Let's Talk Cyclecars

http://www.brightwells.com/ClassicCarsMotorcyclesAutomobilia/ClassicVehicles/Catalogue.aspx

3 Morgans coming up for auction in the UK if any one looking.

 

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=2651 27 &refno=10514435
'S' Sandford in France, too ...

 

Hi guys. Just joined up and thought I would introduce myself. I have read the first 40 pages so far, and found them very interesting. I am in my later years (60) with all our children now gone from hone and have 4 grand children. In 2007 & 2008 I built a single seater reverse trike with pedals, electric motor and a what you might call a modern body. It has all the normal things such as indicators, lights, on board charging for mp4 player, phone and ipad as well as digital read outs for battery condition and power consumption. One might say it's a current model cyclecar. I hope to start building a Morgan style trike, as this has been my goal for many years. I am a specialist tool maker and a car wash maintainance technician. I am hoping to be able to get some help from members of the forum if I could please. I want to build a Morgan style sliding pillar suspension system and I will need some help regarding whether Morgan had caster and camber built in and the axle behind the king pin and all that sort of thing. Kind regards Paul.

 

When I was in the planing stages of the Morgan trike lookalike that I built 50 years ago (geez- has it been that long?) I wrote to the Morgan factory--who were, and had for a long time , out of the trike business. I asked about the suspension pillars and they told me that they were vertical in both planes. They declined giving, or selling a ''chassis'' drawing, saying that they no longer had records, which I didn't believe. I didn't go with Mog suspension, in any event--I used a pair of crosswise leaf springs.

Herb

 

Hello Herb,
Wonderful replica of Morgan - and quite old, being oldtimer by itself! Any photo with details of chassis and suspension?

In that period I was teenager with just a few photos of Morgan 3-wheelers, cut from Magazines in British library in Belgrade!
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Attached are photos of one interesting single-cylinder yellow Morgan (modified original?) and one cute replica, the same with single-cyclinder engine!

Ciao,
Zoran

 

Thanks Herb, how time flies. Well done on the trike, something like that would do me nicely. I had an Austin Healey Sprite mark 2 for a few years and that was a great car to go for a drive with Glenda and get a coffee. Would like to do that again. Paul

 

These pics I just found may be more interesting to me than they are to you all, but I will share anyway.
My wifes Grandfather grew up in this small town in Indiana. The Real Cycle Car Co. Of Converse Indiana was in business for less than 2 years in 1914 and 15

 

Welcome,and all the best for your project.

 

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Hello Graham,​

Quite interestign photos and small insert from strange part of history of American motorisation: crazy years of cyclecars! I like such old black/white photos with history, autenthic surroundings and spirit of old days...
Pity that I couldn't find more photos of Real cyclecars...

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

Thank you Rolfzoller.
Over the last 12 months as I have started to follow cyclecars in general (4 and 3 wheels) it amazes me that some manufactures only lasted 2 years, some even less and yet Morgan kept making theirs (in 3 wheel versions)until the forties/fifties. The new Morgan is really a "normal" car less one wheel, mind you a very nice car. What was old is new again. The photos that Grahamsc has uploaded show the extent that manufactures went too, to set up a manufacturing facility. It would be interesting to know if this building survived and what it was used for after the cyclecar boom and crash. A fly on the wall as such.

 

Hello,
As many present here, I was always fascinated with 3-wheel Morgans! ​

My impression: Morgan was between cycle-cars the same what was Bugatti between serious sport automobiles! Wolf in sheep's wool? It was well designed and constructed, light with powerful engines, with quite good aerodynamic, simple to maintenance and repair... It could be used as family tourer, or sport car or racing car, without too much modifications. Morgan was specific, because it could be raced against motorcycles with side-cars or 4-wheel cycle-cars or other 3-wheel cycle-cars – it was better in all important aspects than most of them (design and construction, road-holding and steering, lighter and more aerodynamic... beside, it was produced in huge quantities, in a few variants...
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Similar situation was with G.N. Cycle-cars: the were top-end among other similar styled cycle-cars! They were easily transferred to hot specials of any kind and use... Most are quite different from originals - in their era and today even more. I suppose that thier performances are extraordinary: speed, accelaration, road-holding...

However I was always interested: what were performances of “ordinary” touring G.N. Cycle-cars, early variants with belt-final-drive or “modern” with only chains? Anybody here with personal experience and impressions?

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

Some of these are cycle cars and some are not, but it would be a riot just to be there as a spectator.

 

Morgans were so fast that they were banned from entering races with 4 wheel cars for a time. I have a video somewhere of a vintage race with a woman driving a Morgan and beating all the other 4 wheel cars. It was amazing to watch.

 

The air cooled Sara from Puteaux. Apparently renowned for reliability rather than speed. Chevrolet should have checked this out before they built their unreliable copper cooled 23.

 

It is 45 below zero in Fairbanks this week, He's probably huddled up to his barrel stove!

 

... and, now something quite different: cycle-car, but made by Henry Ford! Legend said that he made it and parked it at front of some hotel in centre of Detroit - juts to make panic between dozens of cycle-car manufacturers! I suppose that it was just one of his exercises in design: this time a kind of excellent teenager's automobile (junior cars)?

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

...another photo of FORD cyclecar!
Somewhere it was said that this car was made for Edsel Ford?
But, then he was in his twenties and would like something more sreious: at least hot Model-T speedster?
Zoran

 

Fascinating Zoran
I wonder what he used to power it?
Are there any still alve

 

Kume,​

I couldn't find any additional information!
As I understand there was just one built? Edsel Ford had always special cars built for him, a few Model-T with six-cyclinder engines (maybe old Ford Model-K engines?), speedsters and similar specials...
Even this Cyclecar didn't looks small as kids-cars, I doubt that it have Modle-T engine: it would be too big and too heavy!
As I am fasicnated by it, I will try to find something more...

Zoran​

 

a few picks from the Model T forum

 

Bob posted a pic of a 100hp Darracq - not exactly a cyclecar - on Facebook about an hour ago.

 

It should be possible to fit another two chains, one on each side right next to the bevel box, and run their dog clutch on the axle, without compromising the ample dimensions of the hardware. That would give a six-speed GN/FN!

However, it would mean that the open space on the axle directly behind the bevel box would no longer be available for the introduction of the differential these cars never had. It's still possible, and might even be easier, if the diff sat just inboard of one of the hubs - even inside the brake - if drive to that wheel were via some form of torsion spring to compensate for the torsional elasticity of the inner drive-shaft to the opposite wheel, in order to eliminate torque steer. I'd expect torque steer to become a problem anyway as soon as one throws any substantial amount of power and/or tyre grip at a GN or 'Nash, at least when the outboard chains are engaged. This way the conceptual simplicity is maintained because everything is still contained in the rear axle.

That's two of three problems solved. The third, i.e. limited suspension travel necessitated by the inability of the chains to accommodate significant shaft angular misalignment: mount the whole kit and caboodle on a subframe articulated to allow the required bump and roll movements.

I've got a suspension interlink system brewing, which uses front and rear quarter-elliptics. I just have to figure out how to damp them.

 

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Kume,​

Thank you on additional photos! I suppose that engine was smaller then original Model-T engine, but couldn't be sure for entire vehicle? Without people around, it is quite difficult to "guess" from photos, without some facts about dimensions and construction... Ford's Cycle-car looks almost as original Model-T, but must be simpler and something smaller, in spite that it is constructed as real automobile, not just rude cycle-car.

I am still wondering what was the use of such cycle-car: Edsel had fun with more serious automobiles, even when he was teenager (Henry still didn't have Henry the Second)...

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

P.S.: Anybody has sketch of Model-T rolling chassis with dimensions (metric if possible)?
Zoran

 

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Ned,
Good to get such information!
BTW, one cylinder of gargantuous Darracq would be enough for good cycle-car?
Zoran

 

I miss the contributions from him!

 

Ned, I think that you are worrying too much about something that only adds complication to the whole drive system. Lack of a diff was more of an asset (traction) than a detriment (tire wear) with a FN, and variation of chain slack has never been a factor in motorcycles, where the center of the suspension movement is close, but hardly concentric with the drive sprocket. Getting 6 speeds sounds worthwhile, at least 4 and an overdrive ratio, but will require some thought as to the design modification to the plate with the arc shaped slots (the ''wiggly monkey'') that not only locks the selected set of dogs in place, but also prevents having two ratios engaged at once.

Herb

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Hello Paul, Rolfzoller and Ned!​

I am really glad that some of members start to build their light motorised vehicles, on 3 or 4 wheels. Maybe there are some more, but are silent? (of course, not to forget on Ade and his marvelous Jappic racer) I remember that a lot time ago, there were a few announcements of projects, but was shouted up by some active (on words) members... It was long time ago, but this magnificent thread was started as idea for building of modern cycle-car?

Therefore, all information about new projects, including photos and sketches should be welcomed! All of us enjoy in picture-books, but they are even more interesting and valued if they are about projects of our members! Morganesque cycle-cars, or daredevil GN/FN – excellent inspiration for builders and old love for all other...

As was said, probably adding differential for GN clone should be unnecessary complication... But, as was said it could be installed at one of the wheels? At least, Henry Ford did that for his first automobile – Quadricycle, the same as my friend Stu from Australia for his replica of Quadricycle...

Photos attached (maybe could be useful for somebody).

Regards,
Zoran​

 

P.S.: Watching photos and sketch again, I think that Henry's differential (and Stu' replica) shouldn't be good for GN/FN without some reconstruction?

Zoran​

 

Hi Herb

As always I'm trying to expand the performance envelope of the GN/FN concept. The question of why not to go for another concept entirely is another matter, so I won't go into it.

The absence of a differential was an asset because of the limited grip afforded by tyres at the time. If we were to increase available tyre grip - and simultaneously add a substantial amount of power - we'd reach and then pass a point where the advantages of having a diff equal the disadvantages. So I think incorporating a diff (or something equivalent) would be advantageous if one could pull it off.

The problem with the chains is not variation of centre distance over travel, but angular misalignment as in roll. The very stiff suspension of a FN doesn't allow enough travel for more than perhaps 1½° of roll, which is already pushing the twist capacity of a chain set slightly. The interlink system I mentioned would generally limit roll overall to the same sort of range but, due to near-free articulation in warp, we might see anything up to 6-7° of roll deflection at the axle. The pivoting subframe is a fairly simple fix: effectively putting a hinge in the frame, though it's a specific sort of hinge which allows roll articulation as well.

I haven't really thought the "wiggly monkey" through, though I see the principle. It should be possible to arrange a sort of hierarchy of balance beams to handle more than two dog hubs.