Projects Kinmont brakes (thinking of taking the bull by the horns)

No need to worry about a patent. Patent protection doesn’t last forever. Indeed, patents are typically the shortest lived of all forms of intellectual property protection. When a patent expires, the invention described by the patent falls into the public domain: it can be used by anyone without permission from the owner of the expired patent. The basic technologies underlying television and personal computers are good examples of valuable inventions that are no longer covered by in-force patents.

 

Not something I'd do,things that are and were very few and far between, made them not the normel stuff used ,even more so when it didn't work all that great anyway. I build a lot of hotrods in aera of 2000lb's or less,they stop very nicely with 12in. drum brakes on front an what ever drum size the rear used had stock=just not that much need,were I think any $ could be made on this old design. Save your $ n time,this was ment to help. If ya just are stuck on the werid look,make one offs your self to look like ya want

 

There are a set of chrome backs on ebay right now cheap


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I have talked to at least 4 people who have these brakes on their cars and they all say they work great when setup proper. One guy said he had to lock down one time to keep from hitting a deer, and the brakes worked like they should. So as of now, I am not going to believe the story of them not working good, I also know these brakes were on at least one Indy 500 car, so if they were good enough for that they are good enough for me. I have noticed a lot of people say they were no good, but have never even owned them. Keep in mind there was a low production number of these, and they were rare even when they were new, so it is not like a bunch of people has had real experience with them... I am learning a lot by talking to real guys who have and run them on their cars today. I realize you would not do this, and that's understandable, most wouldn't and it is that reason that we don't have them yet. But again, I am not interested in hearing what guys won't do, As not doing something is not productive....

 

I saw them, but they are no good to me, the sellers words not mine, they have been chromed and polished, meaning material has been ground away, and not evenly, plus, I would still have to find the other parts, chances are anyone with the other parts will have backing plates. So they are just not right for this project. I was going to buy them and seller talked me out of it. Thanks though

 

Yes,I did not own any,Dave McCload did from my highschool on the front only of his rod,but his may well of been poorly adjusted,he never got them to stop in a strait line. At the time 1960 I thought of them as werid vs being cool. Now with time gone by,they were a cool idea,like a few other types that were a little outside the norm box.

 

Have you considered making them using a 3-D printer? The technology has come a long way. You could make your master patterns using that technique as well.

 

All things said and done. Please keep us updated on your progress. Jim Ford

 

This is the first mention of 3D printing I have seen here. Think of what you could do with this. I have looked into same, but the pricing isn't what I enjoy at the moment....always was hopeful someone local would offer affordable services for such. Repop articles are not available for one of my vehicles, and an original part is stratosphere costs.......3D printing sounds great to me.....hell even a scan would work wonders. I can't even imagine the endless possibilities. "Weird Science" all over the place.......big boobies and all.

 

With the start of your 33 3 window project now , are you dropping this project ?

 

I checked into having my sand casting patterns made this way. They can print a sand mold that you can pour the metal into without having to use a pattern and ram sand. Cost is a factor at .19 cents per cubic inch. Jim Ford

 

Also take a look at Aro Manufacturing Co. v. Convertible Top Replacement Co., 365 U.S. 336 (1961). There is considerable legal precedent to the effect that making replacement parts for a system which is subject to intellectual property as a system does not constitute infringement of the IP.

 

Using 3D printing to make casting patterns always seemed the sensible approach to me. Printing metal parts directly isn't anything like as accessible as 3D printing in plastics. Despite the starry-eyedness of various geeks it isn't likely to become desktop-accessible soon, and there are as yet metallurgical limitations. Talk to Dzuari on here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/making-a-671-blower.636663/

 

If you were to calculate the cubic inches of a backing plate using a 12 inch diameter by 1 inch thick that's 144 cubic inches. Cost @ .19= $27.36, sounds reasonable to me.

 

I like your stuff, by the way. Very nice hub centers sir.

 

That simple, huh? I'm sorry, but this just strikes me as being naive.

 

You need to figure in enough sand around the object for the gating and risers so your sand mold would need to be about 18"x18"x6" giving you 1944 cubic inches costing $369.36. Ouch and that is for one part. It is a viable way to make patterns by casting the part double shrink oversize, but then it could also be done in wood like most patterns for about the same cost. Jim Ford

 

Thank you. I wish they would sell a little faster but that's what I get for filling a nitch market. I have been working on the wide five disc brake kit this week and hope it will sell better. Jim Ford

 

Thanks for your apology! It is accepted.....Now if you have anything positive to add to this thread feel free to do so.....otherwise please post any pointless and negative post on some other thread....Thanks

 

No I am not droping this project. My 3 window build is on hold until I get a few Key pieces I am waiting on, That thread will become my build thread but for now it is More for inspirational purposes.....I am still trying to find parts to use as a base pattern. I am working on getting my hands on the parts. I have a couple of deals in the works and hopefully will get some parts locked down soon. You know what seems funny too me. I have spoke with 4 guys who have kinmonts (Not on a car) and it seems they plan to Die with them, Oh well!...I will be at their widows auction someday....LOL

 

I have decided I am going to make the main componets and provide resources so the builder can complete them himself, I think this is the safest route for me. As everyone is Sue happy these days. Kinda like Myself and others who build their own firearms, Even though we build a complete gun from a cut up parts kit. We don't have anyone to sue, Because we are the Builder.

 

You really need to pony up the $$$ and buy a set of originals to use. You can then sell them when you're done to re-coup your costs. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that will loan you their brakes to use as patterns unless they're a close friend or relative. I know that I certainly would not be loaning out my set to even a casual in-town acquaintance unless they gave me the full cost of replacement (+extra) as a deposit.

I also think, given the number of parts and amount of machining required, that you'd need to sell them at at least double to re-coup your investment in tooling and cover the cost of part manufacture unless you plan on creating the tooling and doing the manufacture yourself.

While I'm against anyone reproducing complete brakes, I would be one of those interested in some individual parts to complete the sets I do have.

I really doubt the full set at LARS was $8k unless it was a joke and they were just for show. Folks selling there know what they can get for them.

Except it's not that simple. While you would possibly have originals to use as patterns, you would still need produce all of the data required to manufacture them. Reverse engineering existing parts can often more involved than designing from scratch, particularly in the case when things would need to be 100% spot on. You can't just take the existing cast parts, stick 'em in some sand, and then cast from that.

Given that he passed on a set of original backing plates because they'd be polished and lost original detail, to get the resolution and detail required for what he wants, he'd need to spend more on the 3D printer than what it'd cost to buy a set of original brakes multiple times over.

That $.19/cubic inch number is bogus. Some raw material might cost that, but it would not account for any additional burden to cover the cost of the machine purchase and operation. It will cost far more than $27.36 to have an object the size of a backing plate printed. Typical build envelops are in the 10x10" range or under, and going bigger requires a more expensive machine. If you were to outsource the printing, I'd estimate it's cost to be 10x that for a single part.



Cowtown, if this was easy as it "sounds", I'd have reproduced Kinmont parts for my own use long ago, as I have access to the parts (both sides, front and back), engineering equipment (CAD software, 3D printers, and expertise (Mechanical Design Engineer) to do this on my own. The $$$ and effort it'd require isn't trivial.

Us "Negative Nancies" are just trying to keep you level headed and looking at this from a business perspective. Passion is one thing, but when you're putting $$$ on the line, you need to look at the business case for it. Sit down, create a plan and budget, show the detailed photos that are available here on the HAMB to your potential suppliers so they can give you rough estimates on costs and time, and then run the numbers. You should also consult an attorney on what liability you may have if sh!t goes wrong.

 

Wow, "negative nancies" as put above have really taken over this thread.
If we listened to these type of guys, the original brakes you are trying to reproduce would never have been built in the first place.
Along with that the same type of people would have prevented anything from being invented, built and developed and we would still be riding in carts pulled by mules.
They always insist that it can't be done and then go on for pages with reasons why it won't work.
Very seldom do they contribute to making something work.
They will tell you that if it was easy they would have done it.
Truth is that they won't ever do it.
Even if technology were to advance to the point where it was as easy as mixing a cup of coffee.
There would still be a few dozen reasons for them to not do it.

There is something that goes like this.
Those who say it can't be done need to stop bothering those who are doing it.

 

There's a difference between saying it can't be done, and saying the current expectations aren't reasonable. I haven't seen a single person say it "can't be done, period". Here are two facts: 1) it won't be as cheap to do as it seems he expects, 2) it won't be as simple as he seems to think it will be. There are hundreds of thousands more folks that think they can do it, go ahead full steam, and fail because they didn't do their due diligence and under-estimated the task, than those that have had a realistic plan and succeeded as a result.

Those of us that have done it (I know there's at least one in this thread that's done something along these lines), or have the experience with similar projects in the real world (aka; our jobs), are, in fact, the only ones contributing helpful (realistic) input. The "rah rah, go for it" stuff doesn't really help unless those folks pony up the $$$ necessary for development (history shows that usually won't happen), contribute time and expertise to produce the parts (also likely won't happen), or provide other resources to help the project along.

Do a Kickstarter if you need help with funding, but be prepared to have a backup plan if you can't meet the goal. These "gauging interest" type threads are worthless 99% of the time. I've seen these things time and time again across all of the automotive forums I visit.

 

Cowtown I'm thinking you should have just built them and then said look what I did. I have seen people build things that other people said can't be done. I guess it all depends on the person and how bad they want it.

 

I guess we "dared" you guys to build them then. Go ahead, prove us wrong. I'd actually like to see us proven wrong.

 

I was at Wilson Welding the other day picking up some brakes. He showed me the Kinmonts he has all apart to use as patterns. This Guy has been doing this a long time and he told me all that is involved it and it is no easy task. After seeing the originals, I wouldn't want a set and thought the design was poor originally. If you really want them for looks build them. I bought a set of Johnsons for looks and function, they are close enough for my taste. I wanted them to be diffrent from my other stuff. I haven't ran then yet so can't give performance feedback. Have you talked to Mr. Wilson ? Maybe he would be able to offer you some helpful info. Seems like a Hell of a Guy with tons of hands on experience.

 

At this point if I had a set of Kinmonts I gladly loan them to you just to get this going, but unfortunately I don't . Whoever though 30 years ago you could get new 32 rails, 32 steel roadster & coup bodies, repro Ardun Heads, alloy flathead block, etc.

 

these could be like carrol shelbys later cobras. he just happened to find some vin # and chassis and bodies that he didn't kno he had, so they were continuations of originals. WOW

 

Please find another thread!!.......You have nothing positive to add to this thread!...Kindly go back to your couch and watch "fast and loud" You apparently Did not read this thread, Or your just to stupid to understand it. As I do not have a problem with As you say Ponying up and buying a set of kinmonts. And as far as the set at LARS that was missing parts, for 8K, I don't know how much they were as I wasn't there, But One of the guys who posted on this thread says he was and he said they were 8K......You saying you doubt that is basicly calling him a liar!....Were you there? Did You see them? Did you price them?.....If not then please save us all your bullshit that you don't know anything about and find yourself another thread....Or start your own thread, As we don't want Drama here!!!.....Thank you