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Inline 6 Aluminum Cylinder head

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Tricknology, May 2, 2007.

  1. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

  2. hsheartaches
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 460

    hsheartaches
    Member

    Awesome. Now I can cram an aluminum head I6 out of a Jeep in my '51. I should probably swap out the front and rear axles as well. Throw on some 33" tires and hit the trails with bellflower tips, full moons, and a panel paint job. There's a time and a place...
     
  3. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

    I think that that engine would make a great hot rod engine, that is easy to get, and makes a lot of power,,,six in a row can really go!!

    If you can put a 250 or 292 inline in a hot rod why not use one of these that are Cheap, easy to get. with lots of speed parts available?
     
  4. same idea i had....
     
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  5. repoguy
    Joined: Jul 27, 2002
    Posts: 2,087

    repoguy
    Member

    So, 2 grand for a cylinder head, plus about the same amount for a stroker kit, for a cherokee motor??? So, by the time you buy the rest of what you'd need to build the thing, Jesus, we've gotta be talking close to 7 or 8 grand.

    Not trying to be a dick and ruin the party or anything, but that sounds to me like overspending and getting less power just so you can say that you run a 6 that isn't even a vintage mill. I can see spending big coin to build a flatty, rocket, hemi, etc, because of the historical significance in our hobby, but spending that kind of jack to have a newer 6 out of a jeep???

    Am I missing something????
     
  6. hsheartaches
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 460

    hsheartaches
    Member

    Like I said...There's a time and a place. The normal HAMBer isn't looking to throw a Jeep engine into their project. Being a Jeep fanatic, I understand that,"Yes, that head is nice upgrade for a Jeep." BUT, I also understand that IF I had $2K laying around, the last thing on the earth I would probably spend it on is an aluminum head for a Jeep I6. Call me crazy, but isn't this a "traditional hot rod" forum?? Is the Fourwheeler.com forum down?
     
  7. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

    Well, I will respectfully agree to disagree.

    It is not really a JEEP ENGINE, it is Really a RAMBLER/AMC engine, which was developed put in Ramblers in the early 1960's.

    IMHO, for very little Money, you can buy a salvage Low mileage 4.o AMC/Jeep engine with a FIVE speed STICK with a hyd. clutch throw out brg, with a Factory tubular header and a Alluminum TBI manifold that can be easily made into a 2 or 3 carb setup FOR REAL CHEAP.

    You do not need to put on the aluminum head,, the stock Iron head flows great and the later model engines are 9 to 1 compression ratio and have roller lifters.

    guys are using 1960's chevy Inline 6 cylinders so why not use a Rambler(AMC) six cylinder in your Modified?

    It is a RAMBLER Engine.

    PS> if you buy the Whole Cherokee for parts,,It comes with a straight axel front suspension that has Disc brakes already, and a nice narrow rear axel with about 4.10 gears! mor e money saved.
     
  8. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

  9. hsheartaches
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 460

    hsheartaches
    Member

    Alright, if you wanna get all fuckin' technical, Mr. Know-It-All Jeep man, actually the 4.0L Chrysler engine was a spin-off of the AMC 258cid I6 which was a factory powerplant for many years in Jeeps, UNTIL Chrysler purchased Jeep and started plugging the 4.0L into the Jeeps in 1987. Therefore, you're telling lies now. The 4.0L, as you mentioned above, was not put in AMC's and Ramblers in the 60's, as it wasn't a production model until 1987.
     
  10. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

    Dear sir,

    The engines are all from the same family, which started out as a Rambler 199 ci 6 cylinder, then went to 232 under AMC, then 258 and then 4.0 liter under Mopar,,, they are al the same engine, just different bores and strokes,,, a 4.0 head will fit a 199 to a 258 .

    Just like a chevy 283 engine and 350 chevy are from the same engine family.

    ON MANy pre 1955 cars, it is hard to swap in a v8 ibecause the steering gear and steering shaft is in the way.

    Installing this Cheap, low milage, locally available in large numbers, engine and 5 speed would be an easy and cheap swap.


    IF you want,,you COULD adapt the Pre- 1962 chevy 6 valve cover on to the 4.0 valve cover, and 90% of the people will think it is a Chevy 6 cyl. ( JUST like guys who put early Olds v8 covers on a 350 chevy v8 to make it look like a 1950's olds v8)
     
  11. hsheartaches
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 460

    hsheartaches
    Member

    You could also try to polish a terd, but in the end...it's still a piece of shit. Thanks for this wonderful post. I want my 20 minutes back.
     
  12. mustangsix
    Joined: Mar 7, 2005
    Posts: 1,267

    mustangsix
    Member

    There's one for the small Ford six coming, too.

    http://www.classicinlines.com/AluminumHead.asp

    It's hard to justify in terms of dollars per hp. The $3000 you spend on a 200 cube inline six with 200-250 hp could also buy you a 325hp LS1 with a transmission (auto or six speed), EFI, harness, and ECU.

    But if you need something quirky and different, this would be it.
     
  13. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

    Well sir, for many low buck hot rodders this 242 ci (4.0 liter) inline 6 cylinder engine with the 5 speed stick trans and 4.10 rear axle would be a great candidate to put into many pre 1955 cars that came with a inline 6.

    Lets say your a married guy with 2 kids so you do NOT HAVE A lot of $$$$ and you can get a pre- 1955 chevy for Cheap because the 216 ci inline 6 engine is busted, the engine can not be rebuilt or it would be to costly to repair the old engine.

    and you can buy a wrecked cherokee for $200 complete.

    Now you can put the cherokee drive train into your cheap chevy and be hot rodding down the road for very little money.

    many hot roders do not have the MONEY to be purists, they like old cars and want to make them better.

    Putting this drive train into a pre 1955 car is cheaper and better than rebuilding the old flat head 6 or 216 six.
     
  14. hsheartaches
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 460

    hsheartaches
    Member

    You just don't give up, do you??
    Well sir, I am a married man with a baby that will be here in July, but I still manage to find it in my pocket book to buy parts so that I can be a "purist" or whatever in the hell you want to call it. I also work full-time, go to school 3/4 time, and still manage to find time for my wife, and my hot rods, and my car club.
    Hilborn fuel injection's a cheap fix too, isn't it?? Yeah. Keep on contradicting yourself. Why doesn't your bio say,"1946 ford coupe with a 1991 4.0L w/ a 3x2 TBI setup"??
    This post hasn't been shut down yet?? What a waste of bandwidth. I'm done.
     
  15. 53sled
    Joined: Jul 5, 2005
    Posts: 5,822

    53sled
    Member
    from KCMO

    put it in a Plymouth Sundance. A real man's car. I could get a wayne head for my 235. or run a stock 350 with the same power for half as much. I'd rather go fast than go broke.
     
  16. You don't need a stroker kit for the 4.0 Jeep engines - the AMC 258 crank will fit but the crank snout needs about 1/4" machined off to get pulleys and such to fit. With .060 overbore this crank swap will yield 292cid if I remember correctly.

    I can't speak for the normal HAMBer (as I am not normal :D) but the AMC 6's are good engines with great torque. And yes, I have one in the wings waiting for the right project to come along.

    2 G's for a head though - I can't swallow that.
     
  17. mustangsix
    Joined: Mar 7, 2005
    Posts: 1,267

    mustangsix
    Member


    I agree. The point where I diverge is when you start to spend a LOT of money in an attempt to build a 300 hp Jeep six cylinder (or Ford six). If you keep it close to stock, it is an economical way to go on a lot of cars, but if you really need 300 hp, go buy an LS1 or 5.0.

    Another drivetrain that shoud get more attention is the Ford 300. That one is good for a lot of torque, is tough as nails, has lots of transmission possibilities, and with not too much effort can easily go to 250 hp.
     
  18. Foul
    Joined: Mar 25, 2002
    Posts: 642

    Foul
    Member

    I'm building one of these "low-buck" strokers for a non-traditional ride right now (1979 AMX). Used a 1993 Jeep 4.0L block, head and manifolds and a 1979 AMC 258 crankshaft and connecting rods. Total displacement is right around 282-cu.in. with a .040 overbore. Expecting about 265hp with the 4.0L EFI and slightly larger fuel injectors.

    The HESCO head is only for people who like to throw money around - the 7120 (1991-95) 4.0L head flows just fine from the factory.

    The Cherokee engines are available for next to nothing nowadays - I bought my donor 1993 Cherokee for $300.

    That said, I wouldn't put it in a traditional-style hot rod. Hell, it looks too high-tech for my AMX.

    dan


     
  19. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

    got some ??

    When installing the longer stroke 258 (4.2 Liter) crank into the bigger bore (3 7/8 ") 4.0 ( 242 ci) block

    do you use the 4.0 pistons?

    if so, which ones? the early pistons or the later pistons?

    about what will be the new compression ratio with the 258 crank? 10 to 1?

    see KB piston link below,,,


    http://kb-silvolite.com/spistons.php?action=details&S_id=18

    http://kb-silvolite.com/spistons.php?action=details&S_id=17

    http://kb-silvolite.com/spistons.php?action=details&S_id=16

    Also what are the rod lengths for the 4.o and the 258?
     
  20. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,065

    farna
    Member

    I don't know WTF is wrong with hsheartaches, just doesn't like in-line sixes, I guess. To each his own -- no point in reading this thread if it's not your cup-o-tea!! By the way, the 4.0L was developed from the 1964 AMC/Rambler 232. The 199 didn't come out until 1966 (model year) to replace the ancient 195.6, which was a totally different design. AMc just destroked the 232. A 2006 (last year produced) 4.0L head will bolt to a 1964 block with the only mod being to block some casting wash-out holes in the slightly wider head. The holes are to close to the edge of the older block to seal properly. This needs to be done to use the newer head on all pre 87 blocks. 87-89 258 blocks use the wider block casting.

    I built a stroker using this combination back in 1999 when there were only 3-4 others running around. No kits, just some talk and an article by Phil Tooney (I might be off on the name, using memory here!), an AMC engineer who used a Mexican AMC six (bore is the same as the 4.0L, stroke same as 258) to build a "hot" AMC six in the late 80s. Part of the results of that experimentation was the 4.0L bore/stroke combo. Mine only produces 250 hp due to my choice of cam and running a stock 87 throttle body and head (things I'll eventually change). It produces about 300 lb/ft of torque. It preforms rather well in my 3200 pound Rambler wagon, which has a flamed paint job, Jag rear axle, and T-bird rack-n-pinion steering. A mild rod.

    That said, I agree with you about throwing money at a small engine for more power. There comes a time when you just have to go to something bigger. Flathead Ford V-8 lovers have the same problem. They can spend $$$$$ on blowers and such, but could have used a typical SBC or SBF and got as much power or more for a lot less money -- close to the same cost as a blower setup for the flathead V-8. Unless you're really enamored with that particular engine, be it an AMC/Jeep six or a Flathead Ford V-8, there's not much point in throwing lots of money at it for a small gain. If I had to have more than about 280 hp, I'd pull the six and drop in an AMC V-8, and I'm an AMC six lover! I can't see $2K for an aluminum head to gain about 20 hp, and then only from other mods (like higher compression) that will add even more to the total cost. Of course I could just get a much lighter car... 250 hp in a Track-T would be more than enough!
     
  21. Foul
    Joined: Mar 25, 2002
    Posts: 642

    Foul
    Member

    trick-
    when stroking the 4.0L, you use the 258 connecting rods and the 4.0L pistons. In a stock (non-overbored) setup, that's good for compression ratios in the high 8s or low 9s, depending on your head gasket.

    Don't have the exact rod lengths off the top of my head, but those numbers are out there on the Internet.

    One thing the 4.x stroker community would like to see are off-the-shelf pistons designed to use the longer 4.0L connecting rod. Currently, nothing like that is available, save for having custom pistons made, which runs about $600.

    If you're really interested in the 4.0L engine swap, hit up cjoffroad.com. If you're really interested in stroking the engine, there's a strokers mailing list as part of the Yahoo groups.

    dan
     
  22. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,065

    farna
    Member

    There's a "strokers" group on Yahoo just for these engines. The best site for info is probably http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/stroker.html. There are also standard 4.0L performance tips in the links in the page masthead.

    Foul -- make an adapter for the throttle body to use a standard style air filter. People look under my hood and see the open filter and overlook the EFI rail and wiring, think I have a carb in it! A more knowledgeable person would take a closer/second look though. I don't know how anyone misses the EFI myself!

    Couldn't save the pic to post (using daughter's computer), but here's a link to an engine bay photo: http://hotrodders.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5132/cat/500/page/2
     
  23. I'm just about to go out and do an oil change in my 4 litre Ford I6 overhead cam aluminium cross flow headed daily now. Doesn't thrill me, but I think you guys would like one. They do go good. Then there are the turbo versions. They go like stink!
     
  24. Tricknology
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 547

    Tricknology
    Member
    from DETROIT

  25. KB Pistons has forged pistons for the 4.0 rods that is in there lists,if they are "on-the-shelf" or if they make them when ordered I don't know but they are availble for those who needs them.

    4.0 liter rods are 6.125 long ,258 rods are 5.87.
    Budget-strokers (4.0 block & pistons & 258 crank & rods) will end up with the following sizes depending on overbore:
    Stock bore = 276 cu in 0.030 overbore=280 cu in. 0.040 over=282 cu in. 0.060 over = 284 cu in. Comp ratio will depend on the overbore but stock bore leaves You with a c.r @ 9.6 , 0.060 over gives @ 9.9 c.r.
    Every 0.010 shaved off the head gives a 0.2 increase in C.R.

    The best head to use is the 91-94 HO it flows 209 cfm @ 25 " " and can be ported to aproxx. 265 cfm without changing the valve-size (1.91/1.50)

    The older 258 cranks are the strongest pre 75 or 76 "not sure there" and if you choose to build a carburated engine You can ditch the serpentine pulleys and use the v-belt ones from the 258,but then you have to use the water-pump from the same engine since the v-belt pulley won't fit the 4.0 waterpump,but that's no problem it bolts right up.

    Check out Dino Savvas page there You'll find everything You need to know when it comes to this ,he's done a great job documenting all sorts of spec's about this: http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/index.html
     

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