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How to set-up a Winters V8 Quick-Change

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by HemiDeuce, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I bought a Winters #SR 3605 V8 Centre Kit, it comes complete with the pinion installed in the case, a 3:78 ring gear, Wedge lock gear drive posi unit, one set of change gears of your choice, bearings, shims and O rings. I also ordered the optional plain rear cover, rather than the finned standard cover.

    I am using 40 Ford side bells with big bearing 9" housing ends, & brakes, & push in 31 spline axels.

    They claim this rear end will handle 500 HP, as long as your aren't side stepping the clutch with slicks on the drag strip.

    I searched the web, and phoned a number of people that sell these units, but could not get a definitive answer on "HOW" to set this rear end up, only the specs, so I decided to figure it out myself.

    This is how I did it.

    The side bell preload and pinion backlash, is set much like the stock early Ford rear end, only you are using shims on either side of the carrier, instead of gaskets, between the side bells.

    The pinion is factory installed in the case, and it's pre-load is set a 20 in.lb. Therefore, you do not need to mess with that.

    You will need a set of "set-up bearings", so I bought another set of 25592 Timken carrier bearings, and a new set of 25522 Timken cups, which I installed in the side bells. I had the 25592 carrier bearings honed out so they would just slide on and off the carrier, making the set-up easier. Pic. # 1

    Side bell preload with the Wedge lock carrier installed, should be .007.
    This is done by adding shims and the spacer, between the bearings and the carrier, so there is absolutely no side movement of the carrier, when the center section is bolted up to the side bells. The .007 is added to the total for the pre-load. I found this impossible to do, without being able to get a feller gauge between the carrier and the carrier bearings, with the assembly bolted together.

    I machined four spacers the exact length of the center section, out of 5/8" DOM tubing and threaded them 3/8-24, on both ends, to space the side bells apart, the same distance as the center section, with the carrier, shims, spacer, and bearings installed. Pic.# 2.

    Stand the left housing on the ground, and assemble the carrier and shim pack with bearings, and then bolt the right side housing together, lift it up on the bench for your measurements. Pic#3.

    Do not bolt the Ring Gear to the carrier yet, as it is much easier to measure for the required number of shims without it in place. Double check, that the carrier is tight, and has absolutely no side play between the side bells, then add the .007 for your carrier pre-load.

    Once you have the carrier pre load established, you can bolt the ring gear to the carrier, taking care to position it correctly, and torque to 60 ft. lbs. in steps, using Red Locktite and the supplied Belleville washers and bolts. Pic#4.

    To set the Pinion backlash, start with an excessive amount of shims on the backlash side (right side) of the carrier. This is to prevent a false pre-load reading. A false pre-load reading will occur if the ring & pinion are crushed against each other.

    Again, this is easiest to do if you stand the left housing on the ground, insert the carrier, the centre section, and then install the right side housing, bolt it together and then place on your bench to do your checking. Pic#5.

    Winters supplies shims in the following thickness, .007, .010, .012, & .016.

    These are some of the combinations you are likely to use. Pic#6.

    You should take notes of the combinations you are using. Pic#7 & 12.

    Move shims from the right side to the left side, until a back lash of .004 to .008 with no tight spots is achieved, measured at the upper change gear pinion, without the change gears in place. Pic#10.

    I made a small clamp to assist in this. Pic#11.

    The total preload of the assembled assembly should be 27 to 29 in.lbs. measured with a beam or dial style, torque wrench.

    After completing this set-up, it occurred to me that with the thousands of these units produced, and the precision CNC equipment that machines them, the final set up would probably be pretty much the same, on all of them.

    My final set up was, .100 to eliminate any side play, plus .007 for the preload, for .107 total. In my final set up, the split was, .050 on the left side of the carrier, and .057 on the right side of the carrier. In addition, there is a .125 spacer on the right side of the carrier in all of these calculations. Pic#9.

    With the pre-load and backlash established, the checker bearings are removed, and replaced with the permanent pressed on bearings, leaving the shims and spacer in place. Pic#8.

    I drilled and tapped the right side bell, for a pipe plug 1 3/4" below the centre line of the axel, to fill, and check the fluid level in the ring and pinion, carrier, part of the assembly. There is also a fill plug on the Winters QC unit at the rear left side of the change gear housing. Pic#13 & 14.

    The complete assembly is reassembled with O-rings sealing the side bells to the centre section, and torqued to 30 ft. lbs. in an alternating criss cross pattern, in steps.

    I ordered my quick change with a # 3 set of straight cut gears, and a set of # 4 helical gears, which should be shimmed to .005 to .010. Pic#15 & # 16.
    No sense having a Quick change, with out changing gears occasionally, or when the straight cut's noise start to get on your nerves.

    I also replaced the High nuts and studs, with Kit #2931, which have shorter studs, & flanged nuts. Pic# 17.
    I think they look more traditional, and clears the tank, with out modifying it.

    Measure for axels to the centre of the carrier, parting line inside, and deduct 1/8". Pic# 18.

    Then add your axels and brakes.

    I put the car on the road in July, and then went for a 3,000 mi. trip, so this set up works for me.

    Sorry I was unable to insert the following pictures in the proper sequence.

    Pictures are numbered left to right, top to bottom.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  2. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,048

    banjorear
    Member

    Please tell more. I'm really interested in this info,
     
  3. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks to Flat Ernie for merging my 5 posts into one.
    If I could just figure out how to insert the pictures into the correct paragraphs, it would make a little more sence.
    HemiDeuce.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  4. Rolf
    Joined: Jul 23, 2002
    Posts: 1,828

    Rolf
    Member

    Great tech, and it sure made that roadster look good.
     
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  5. 32ford5
    Joined: Sep 15, 2009
    Posts: 1,055

    32ford5
    Member
    from Australia

    Thanks for that. My V8 rear will be arriving soon and it has the same specs as yours. This info will come in very handy.
     
  6. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This Winters V8 Quick-Change is a great rear end, and I've put about 13,000 miles on mine and it looks and works perfect.
    HemiDeuce.
     
  7. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,982

    fab32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Well thought out tech. The only deviation in the outcome would be any differences in the "check/setup" bearings and the ones used for actual assembly. Being produced buy the thousands in every production run should pretty much negate any difference. Bearings have the closest manufacturing tollerances of any part of an automobile/truck. Thanks for sharing.

    Frank
     
  8. 32ford5
    Joined: Sep 15, 2009
    Posts: 1,055

    32ford5
    Member
    from Australia

    My Buick 425 Nailhead will have dual carbs, hot spark, head work and port matching and a lumpy cam pushing TA rockers. I'll be running a 3 speed GM truck manual box and Firestone Dragsters. I'm not planning on trying to get the lowest ET at the drags every weekend but I do love mashing the pedal. I'm not really a rev and dump kind of guy preferring any rear tyre action to come from throttle only.

    The Buick 425 dual quad has 465 lb/ft from factory so I'm guessing it'll be closer to 500 lb/ft (with about 400 HP). Not sure how much of that actually makes it's way to the rear but I have the same Winters QC coming and I'm wondering how will it hold up to the power of the 425 in your opinions?
     
  9. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Frank, I always use Timken Bearings as I consider them the best, not always the cheapest, but the best, and I would think they would have near perfect dimensions.
    Measuring the spacers I used, in place of the center section, offers a greater possibility of error if you do not have a large set of micrometers to get those dimensions exact.
    HemiDeuce.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
  10. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 12,246

    Paul
    Editor

    well done, thank you
     
  11. Pewsplace
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 1,626

    Pewsplace
    Member

    Very well done and informative. I have the same set up but have not installed the carrier bearings. Using a second set seems to be the answer. What ends did you use on the Ford bells? Do they slip into the housing or butt weld?

    I have used Dutchman but I like the look of yours better.
    Lynn
     
  12. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I bought the Big Bearing Ford ends from Dutchman and butt welded them on the ends of the 40 Ford Side Bells.
    The drum to drum width on mine is 57".
    HemiDeuce.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2009
  13. stillrunners
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,217

    stillrunners
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from dallas

  14. Bib Overalls
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 3,851

    Bib Overalls
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Great tech. I am in the process of sourcing a Winters SR 3605 with the SR 8211V cover. Not cheap. But stronger than any of the other V8 sized QC centers that use the original Ford R&P, carrier, and spider gears. My plan was to sub out the assembly. But now I think that I may be able to do it myself.

    I will be using the Hot Rod Works late axle conversion that retains the stock axle bell ends.

    Thanks!
     
  15. Great tech! I need to archive this one for future reference. Thanks for taking the time to educate us!
     
  16. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Another interesting thing that I discovered about using the Winters V8 Quick change in a 32 Ford, is you do not have to notch the gas tank for clearance.
    The Winters V8 unit is 3 1/2" from the side bell flange to the rear cover, and the Halibrand is 4 1/2" for the same measurement. All other dimensions appear to be the same.
    HemiDeuce.
     

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  17. striper
    Joined: Mar 22, 2005
    Posts: 4,430

    striper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Just started on mine today. Of course I knew about this thread (thanks HemiDeuce) but didn't bother to read it this morning. Went out and installed the ring gear. Doh. Should be OK. I've set up one banjo before so I get the picture.

    This is a great tech thread and it follows pretty much the description in the Winters Tech manual. The one question I have though is about why you had to use those spacers. If you trial fit until you have zero clearance between the bells and the centre section, then add your .007 surely it would achieve the desired outcome.

    Great idea on the set up bearings. I have no idea how you would do it otherwise. The Winters manual just says you move the shims around until you get the fit you need but I don't know how you would do that once the bearings are pressed on over the spacer and shims.

    I'll let you know how I get on. I can't do any more until my axle housings get back from the machinist. Hopefully early next week.

    Pete
     
  18. DICK SPADARO
    Joined: Jun 6, 2005
    Posts: 1,887

    DICK SPADARO
    Member

    This is my take on setting up the carrier crush on this rear end.

    First you are going to have to make some kind of vertical holding attachment to support the axle assembly on a work bench or engine stand.

    If you are using original style bells you must use a paper gasket to prevent the joint from leaking. I use the .005 gasket as a seal on each side.

    It is a good idea to have a set of set up bearings and you can actually use a good set of used bearings if you want to. Just hone out the center so the bearing slides over the carrier snout as already outlined.

    Now this is a two part task, setting the carrier crush and setting the pinion back lash, first the crush.

    To begin to set the crush, you should remove the ring gear from the carrier, it is not absolutely necessary but by removing the gear it eliminates the pinion drag and a more accurate feel is accomplished.

    Position the left axle tube vertically, drop on a banjo gasket, install the set up bearing using the medium thickness spacer, then the carrier, then install the QC case to the lower banjo tube and fasten with 4 bolts in a square pattern.

    Now position a gasket on the right tube using a light film of grease to hold it in place, install the opposite side set up bearing and the medium spacer, Carefully install the right tube. This tube should not set flat upon the QC case. If it does remove the tube and the center section and replace the bearing spacers with the next thickness larger and reassemble the unit. At this time the right tube should not set tightly upon the QC case.

    With the upper bell setting squarely on the QC take a feeler gauge and measure the distance on each side of the upper bell flange to the QC case surface to determine the distance required for the proper bearing crush. If the spec's say it is .007 and your gauge measures .007 then you are good to go. If not this is where the hard part starts.

    Since the carrier should be somewhat evenly spaced between the cones it is necessary to balance the shim stack on the carrier bearings. EXAMPLE: Should your feeler gauge read .015 this would mean that the carrier bearing shim stack is to LARGE and must be thinner. Since you need .007 crush, you would determine the amount of shim to be removed by subtracting .007 from .015 equaling .008 and divide this by 2 to balance the spacing per side giving a difference of .004 spacing that must be removed from each carrier shim to achieve the correct crush. At this time you would disassemble your unit and adjust the thickness of the carrier bearing spacers as necessary evenly reducing the spacer thickness on both sides to achieve the determined crush clearance. Reassemble and recheck your clearance again.

    After establishing the correct crush the next step is to check the ring gear back lash.

    Remove the QC case and carrier from the left tube and reinstall the ring gear on the carrier remembering to torque the bolts correctly. Reassemble the unit and this time install 4 bolts in a square pattern on the upper tube also and tighten. This establishes the positioning to determine the pinion back lash. With the QC gear cover removed attempt to rock the pinion shaft back and forth on the ring gear, if it does not rock there is no pinion clearance, if the pinion rocks a lot there is too much pinion clearance. The correct amount of rock can be determined by using a dial indicator and you should have between .008 and .011" of movement.

    If you have no movement the ring gear is binding with the pinion and must be adjusted further away. To do this requires that the carrier bearing shims be adjusted from side to side to insure that the spacing of the crush remains the same but the relationship of the gears changes. In the case of being to tight the ring gear must be moved away from the pinion so this requires the cone bearing spacer to be made thinner so you would exchange the left cone bearing spacer for a thinner spacer and add the same amount of difference to the right side cone bearing spacer. Say you had equal .010 spacers on each cone to achieve a movement of .005 out you would replace the left cone spacer with a .005 spacer and the right cone spacer would be increased to .015. This would retain the same crush spacing but move the ring gear away from the pinion to achieve the correct amount of back lash. The reverse is applied if you have too much back lash, you would add spacing to the left side carrier bearing and remove spacing from the right side carrier bearing moving the gear closer to the pinion and reducing the back lash.

    Now this takes a couple tries so you should not be using any sealers or attempt to bolt this tight the first time, it may require two or three checks to get each of the components aligned correctly.

    Once you are satisfied that you have all the clearances correct you can disassemble the unit and install the new carrier bearings apply a tin coat of gasket cement on the banjo gaskets, reassemble the unit and torque the nuts.

    Hope this helps you out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  19. striper
    Joined: Mar 22, 2005
    Posts: 4,430

    striper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks Dick. Everything you have written is how I understand it. The only thing I am unsure of is the use of the paper gaskets with the Winters kit.

    The kit does not come with the usual full range of gaskets, just a 2 different thicknesses and also a pair of black standard gasket material gaskets. I figure that since we are using shims behind the carrier bearings to set the pre load and pinion backlash that would be the reason for the standard gaskets and lack of various thicknesses. I thought I would set mine up using the standard gaskets as they appear to offer the best sealing properties but the final thickness when torqued down is essentially unknown.

    Maybe that is where my plan needs to change and I should use a couple of the coloured gaskests with a known thickness. I guess that makes sense.

    Do the supplied O rings work? I am assuming from your comment that they don't work with original axle bells.

    Heading out tomorrow to get a set of set up bearings. Wish me luck with finding someone to hone them for me. You have no idea how hard it is to do anything in this backwater.

    Thanks.

    Pete
     
  20. DICK SPADARO
    Joined: Jun 6, 2005
    Posts: 1,887

    DICK SPADARO
    Member

    Striper, Now I didnt carefully look at this post so I assumed 11/26 was this year well it actually 2007 so I'm a little slow on the trigger. Depending on which unit you purchased will determine the gasket. If you purchased the complete traditional style rearend with the new taper tubes, this unit uses an "O" ring seal so the paper gaskets are not necessary. If you have purchased the Hot rod V8 rearend which uses the early ford tubes converted to late model axles, this uses a wedge lock differential and requires the posted set up. I just use the thinest gasket to act as a seal with the old tubes hoping this will prevent the lube from weeping at the joint. Because they are so thin they do not squish down and change the crush setting when tightened. Now if you purchased the Early ford Quickchange that I market for original Ford bells and axles, this uses the bell gaskets to determine the carrier crush and the setup procedure is just like an original banjo where you swap the bell gaskets to get the carrier spacing.

    You dont need any thing special to hone out an old bearing , just a small engine cylinder hone and a hand drill.
     
  21. Dick,
    Just curious...how hard would it be to machine the bell adaptors for o-rings and eliminate the side gaskets? Or am I thinking of the wrong size center?

    I've set up a number of the open tube sprint centers, and the o-rings seem to make the job a hell of a lot easier...
     
  22. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    When I originally posted this piece, Beaver at Winters nor anyone else that sells these Winters Quickchange units had anything printed or posted on the internet, nor would they tell me HOW to set up these units that they were selling.
    I figured it was about time it was available on the HAMB for everyone else who likes to do it themselves, as I do, insted of sending it half way across the country for the set up.
    The O rings that I used in my set up worked great, I also used a light smear of silicone on the flanges before I bolted them together. If you used the gaskets it would throw out your preload settings.
    HemiDeuce.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  23. striper
    Joined: Mar 22, 2005
    Posts: 4,430

    striper
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks again for your input Dick. My set up is essentially identical to HemiDeuce except I'm using the Hotrodworks axle conversion so I can keep my early brakes.

    From what HemiDeuce says below he didn't use any gaskets, just the O rings.

    I suppose if I was to set it up using the paper gaskets and taking them into account they would be OK but if the O rings work without any gaskets maybe that is the way to go.

    It's amazing that even now there is no clear information from Winters that explains this assembly unambiguously.


    Oh and Dick. While I thought honing the bearings might be a problem, the bigger problem I found this morning is they are unavailable in Australia. This is such a backwater.
     
  24. DICK SPADARO
    Joined: Jun 6, 2005
    Posts: 1,887

    DICK SPADARO
    Member

    To answer questions, No you don't have to use the gaskets but as I indicated it makes a better seal so the housing doesn't weep lube. The thin gasket doesn't change the shim stack if you start with the gasket in position, you just compensate for it. Yes you can use the O ring but this depends on the QC case. If you are using stock bells you will have to determine if the case is machined for the lip of the bell for index or the case indexes off the bolts and the lip of the axle bell is used for the O- Ring mount.

    Exwest, Yes you can retro fit the o ring if you have a way to under cut the case or the axle tube mounting face to compensate for the O Ring thickness unfortunately most people do not have access to machinery that is large enough to accept these parts.

    Stripper, axle tube bearings are the same from 1937-48 so any used rear axle could supply donor parts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  25. HemiDeuce
    Joined: Aug 9, 2004
    Posts: 921

    HemiDeuce
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Just a short update to this thread, my Winters Quickchange came with the "O" rings to use in place of the gaskets that are normally used in shimming and sealing the centre section to the side bells.
     
  26. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 429

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    HemiDeuce - Nice write up. I can't believe this is the first time I have seen this. I thought I had read every Quck Change post on the H.A.M.B. People call me all the time wanting to know how to do this. That's one of the reasons I started to write a book on Quick Changes.

    I like the way you figured how to set tht carrierpreload. I did it slightly differently. I used the center section but turned the carrier with an old axle shaft that engaged both side gears in the differential. By welding a socket on the end, I was able to check turning torque to establish preload. I use a dial type inch/lb torque wrench to get about 60 in/lbs of rotating torque.

    For either you or Dick Spadaro - Why do you do your fit up with the left bell down? I have always put the right side down. This allows me to lift the carrier out to adjust the shim pack.
    With some minor variations you can use this procedure to set up the early Ford Quick Changes too.
     
  27. helmsville
    Joined: Mar 4, 2007
    Posts: 323

    helmsville
    Member

    thank's for the info, ive got to get short axle's at duchman, you kinda got me woried about dealing with them, my quick change is a Jones, have you ever heard of that one and then i have a franklin siting on the flooor for a future project, do you set up my quickchange the same way? thank's CH
     

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  28. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 429

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    CH,
    Your Jones and Frankland rears are likely 3/4 ton size units. There is virtually no difference in the set up procedures between the two. Don't worry about the axles. Any of the axle suppliers (Moser, Currie, Dutchman, Summers Bros. etc.) can make you appropriate axles. You need to give them accurate dimensions for your overall width and what bearing style you intend to use. I also require the type of differential to properly determine the overall axle length.

    Post or PM me these specs and I'll guide you through the axle selection.

    Bruce
     
  29. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 590

    55willys
    Member

    Thanks for all the info.
     
  30. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 29,863

    Tman
    Member

    Yes, thanks, I found this thread in a search and it will help me with our Bonneville car!
     

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